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Sack Ken Clarke over rape comments - Miliband Ken Clarke clarifies 'serious rape' remarks
(40 minutes later)
  
Ken Clarke should be sacked as justice secretary following his remarks about rape on BBC Radio 5 live, Labour leader Ed Miliband has said. Ken Clarke has declined to apologise after he appeared to suggest that some rapes were less serious than others.
His reference to "serious rape" during the interview about proposals to change sentencing rules have been criticised. It followed a BBC interview about sentencing proposals in which he referred to "serious rape".
Mr Miliband said it suggested there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape". The justice secretary later returned to TV studios to stress that "all rape is a serious crime" but added he did not think he had suggested otherwise.
Mr Clarke said later all rape was serious and if he gave another impression then that was "wrong". Labour leader Ed Miliband had said he should quit for effectively suggesting there were "other categories of rape".
He has blamed "spin" for the row and said he had been responding to claims about the length of sentences for rape. The row began on Wednesday morning with remarks Mr Clarke gave in an interview with BBC Radio 5live about proposals under consultation to halve jail terms for people who plead guilty early, including rapists.
The row follows proposals under consultation to halve jail terms for people who plead guilty early, including rapists who on average are sentenced to five years.
'Proper punishment''Proper punishment'
At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales.At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales.
At Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Miliband said Mr Clarke had suggested there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape" adding: "The justice secretary can't speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that." In an interview with Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5live, Mr Clarke argued that pushing for an early guilty plea would stop rapists denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar" in court.
David Cameron told MPs rape was "one of the most serious crimes that there is and it should be met with proper punishment" and the "real disgrace" was that only 6% of reported rape cases ended in a conviction.
He said there was already a plea bargaining system in the UK and the government was only consulting on whether to extend - and had not yet decided what crimes it should include.
The prime minister said he had not heard the interview but Mr Miliband told him to go back and listen to the interview adding: "The justice secretary should not be in his post at the end of today."
'Strongest example'
Earlier Labour former Solicitor General Vera Baird QC told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the standard sentence for rape started at five years.
"If you are talking about halving it to two-and-a-half years and then a person gets out halfway through their sentence on licence which is usual, then we are talking about sentences of 15 months which have no regard at all for the gravity of the offence and gives no time for rehabilitation or training," she said.
But Mr Clarke told Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5 Live that pushing for an early guilty plea would stop rapists denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar" in court.
He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense".He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense".
Date rape
On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.."On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.."
"A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that.""A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that."
When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime."When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime."
He also said date rapes were included in the figures which could be "sometimes very confusing" adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances." He also said date rapes were included in the figures adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances."
'Absolutely appalling' He later admitted he had confused "date rape" with sex with a willing but underage girl.
In a separate interview with Sky News, Mr Clarke denied he was cutting sentences. He said the proposal applied to every single criminal offence, adding: "Rape has been singled out as an example mainly to add a bit of sexual excitement to the headlines."In a separate interview with Sky News, Mr Clarke denied he was cutting sentences. He said the proposal applied to every single criminal offence, adding: "Rape has been singled out as an example mainly to add a bit of sexual excitement to the headlines."
Later Mr Clarke said the "most extraordinary spin" had been put on his comments and he had been responding to average sentence figures that were put to him. At Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Miliband said Mr Clarke's comments had implied there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape" adding: "The justice secretary can't speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that."
But he told BBC political editor Nick Robinson: "My view is all rape is a serious crime and if I have given the impression that is not my view then that is wrong, a wrong choice of words." 'Real disgrace'
He added he had used the phrase date rape "slightly inaccurately" to mean sex with a willing but underage girl. David Cameron told MPs rape was "one of the most serious crimes that there is and it should be met with proper punishment" and the "real disgrace" was that only 6% of reported rape cases ended in a conviction.
"All rape is a serious crime and I obviously I should not have used any form of words that gave the impression my view was different because that has always been my opinion." He said there was already a plea bargaining system in the UK and the government was only consulting on whether to extend - and had not yet decided what crimes it should include.
"I apologise if an impression has been given which is not my view and which I don't think I stated." The prime minister said he had not heard the interview but Mr Miliband told him to go back and listen to the interview adding: "The justice secretary should not be in his post at the end of today."
Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said Mr Clarke "has to go if he stands by these comments because they are absolutely appalling".Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said Mr Clarke "has to go if he stands by these comments because they are absolutely appalling".
In later interviews Mr Clarke said the "most extraordinary spin" had been put on his comments and he had been responding to average sentence figures that were put to him.
But he told BBC political editor Nick Robinson: "My view is all rape is a serious crime and if I have given the impression that is not my view then that is wrong, a wrong choice of words."
Asked if he had been ordered to apologise following the row, Mr Clarke said he had not - and he had not apologised: "I apologise if an impression has been given which is not my view and which I don't think I stated."
He added: "Nobody has had to tell me anything - I have always believed from the days I was a young lawyer that rape is a very serious crime - all rape."
The prime minister's spokesman said it was "clearly regrettable" if anybody had been offended by Mr Clarke's comments but said the PM had confidence in him.
He added there had been some misconceptions about what has been said, but added: "The Prime Minister has not spent the day watching Ken Clarke interviews."
He said both Mr Cameron and Mr Clarke had thought it important he "went out and clarified the position."