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Sir Philip Green: 'stupid and idiotic' decisions made over BHS - live updates Sir Philip Green: 'stupid and idiotic' decisions made over BHS - live updates
(35 minutes later)
12.11pm BST
12:11
Conservative MP Amanda Solloway now takes up the questioning, asking Green about how the sale of BHS unfolded.
He says Robin Saunders, a top City banker, had flagged up “en passant” that she knew of a well-funded individual who was interested in buying the group.
He confirms that this was Paul Sutton, a convicted fraudster, who Green says he’d not met previously.
Chappell didn’t come onto the scene until 3 February 2015, Green insists - sinking the idea that Chappell was a leading light in Sutton’s deal team.
And Green then says that a mysterious file on Sutton landed on his desk, which prompted Arcadia to “disengage” with him.
Green says he decided not to deal further with Paul Sutton after a file arrived on him from an anonymous source.
Q: Robin Saunders told us that she warned you in June 2013 that Sutton was discredited....yet you still continued to deal with him.
Not true, Green insists - we broke off talk as soon as the file arrived.
Q: Did you lambast your team for not discovering problems with Sutton?
Green pauses, looking suspicious, and then asks if the committee have a note saying that happened (!).
It seems they do not.
Robin Saunders said Paul Sutton was discredited in June 2013. "The file didn't read very well and that was the end of it," said Green
Updated
at 12.12pm BST
12.04pm BST
12:04
Oooof, new evidence that Green told chairman of pension trustees that he "jeopardised" sale to Chappell by talking pension contributions
12.03pm BST
12:03
And we’re back... Reminder you can watch the session in the top of this blog - or on Parliament Live.
Green seems in jovial mood:
Welcome back, says chair Ian Wright. "we've said a prayer together," says Green..
Jeremy Quin MP turns to the sale of BHS to ex-bankrupt Dominic Chappell.
Back from break. Straight into Chappell question. "Lucky man, eh?" Green says. Pretty flippant to 11,000 #BHS staff
Green denies Chappell’s claim that he was initially led to believe he could buy BHS without its pension liabilities.
There was no question that was ever on the table once we began serious negotiations, Green insists.
Q: But this looks like a classic bait-and-switch...
Not so, Green says
Q: Chappell says he wasn’t given access to the BHS trustees or the pension regulator.
That’s not true, Green says, suggesting that Chappell actually met with Chris Martin, the head of the pension trustees.
Q: Chris Martin has notes of a conversation with you, the day after the deal was done, in which you say he potentially jeopardised the deal by telling Chappell the annual pension contributions could rise to £30m.
Green doesn’t really address this point.
MP says Green spoke to pf chair after BHS sale + said potentially jeopardised the deal by telling Chappell pension scheme required £30m a yr
11.53am BST
11:53
Here’s our first news story on Sir Philip Green’s testimony, from Graham Ruddick:
Related: BHS pension problems can be solved, Sir Philip Green tells MPs
11.52am BST
11:52
Halftime report: Apology and aggression from Green
That was one of the most combative, sometimes aggressive performances I’ve seen from a businessman before MPs.
So, where do we stand, as the participants take a quick break?
“There certainly was no intent at all on my part for anything to be like this. It didn’t need to be like this and I just want to apologise to all the BHS people who have been involved in this”.
We want to find a solution for the 20,000 pensioners.
11.40am BST
11:40
One finally final question before the break - was Green unhappy that Arcadia chairman Lord Grabiner didn’t even turn up for the meeting when BHS was sold?
Green declines to put the boot into Grabiner, suggesting he may have had other commitments.
And now a 15 minute break - after which, we’ll hear about the decision to sell BHS to Dominic Chappell....
What first attracted you to ex bankrupt Chappell? "If you want to start that, we can't take a break" says Green, one of his better points
11.38am BST11.38am BST
11:3811:38
Green also suggests that he did the right thing for BHS.Green also suggests that he did the right thing for BHS.
I could simply have put the company into administration, he argues, and addressed the pension issue that way.I could simply have put the company into administration, he argues, and addressed the pension issue that way.
"If I just wanted to be a ruthless businessman we'd have taken the biz through an admin process ourselves". Would have crystallised pension"If I just wanted to be a ruthless businessman we'd have taken the biz through an admin process ourselves". Would have crystallised pension
And he also takes another pop at the recent press coverage:And he also takes another pop at the recent press coverage:
In the last four weeks, I could be a murderer for the way they write about me.In the last four weeks, I could be a murderer for the way they write about me.
11.36am BST11.36am BST
11:3611:36
Last questions before a quick break.Last questions before a quick break.
Jeremy Quin MP asks Green whether he agrees that his failure to keep a closer eye on the BHS pension scheme was a corporate governance failure.Jeremy Quin MP asks Green whether he agrees that his failure to keep a closer eye on the BHS pension scheme was a corporate governance failure.
Green doesn’t accept the charge, and then perks up when the House of Commons bells ring. Break time, he smiles.Green doesn’t accept the charge, and then perks up when the House of Commons bells ring. Break time, he smiles.
No Mr Green, that’s the bell for prayers, Frank Field explains gently.No Mr Green, that’s the bell for prayers, Frank Field explains gently.
Is that for you or for me, asks the Arcadia boss.Is that for you or for me, asks the Arcadia boss.
For both of us hopefully, Field murmers.For both of us hopefully, Field murmers.
Green, who looks desperate for a break, repeats that he wants everyone to know that he’s committed to finding a soltuion to the BHS pension schemeGreen, who looks desperate for a break, repeats that he wants everyone to know that he’s committed to finding a soltuion to the BHS pension scheme
There’s nothing I’m going to tell you that you can’t go and check up.,.... I’m not going to tell you lies.There’s nothing I’m going to tell you that you can’t go and check up.,.... I’m not going to tell you lies.
That’s the third time Green has promised he’s not fibbing....That’s the third time Green has promised he’s not fibbing....
11.28am BST11.28am BST
11:2811:28
Richard Graham MP is pushing Green on Project Thor.Richard Graham MP is pushing Green on Project Thor.
He suggesting that the scheme was suspended once the regulator demanded more details about exactly what Arcadia would putting into the BHS scheme.He suggesting that the scheme was suspended once the regulator demanded more details about exactly what Arcadia would putting into the BHS scheme.
And he produces an email from the chair of the BHS pension trustees, which says Green was unhappy that the regulator was “Trawling through bullshit from 10 years ago”.And he produces an email from the chair of the BHS pension trustees, which says Green was unhappy that the regulator was “Trawling through bullshit from 10 years ago”.
Graham points out that Green had originally proposed selling BHS to Dominic Chappell free of its pension liabilities. Is that because you thought Project Thor would have been executed first?Graham points out that Green had originally proposed selling BHS to Dominic Chappell free of its pension liabilities. Is that because you thought Project Thor would have been executed first?
Green won’t engage.... snarling:Green won’t engage.... snarling:
“I’m sorry, are we in the same room? I can’t deal with this”“I’m sorry, are we in the same room? I can’t deal with this”
And he appeals to committee chair Frank Field to call Graham off, before repeating that he will solve the pension issue.And he appeals to committee chair Frank Field to call Graham off, before repeating that he will solve the pension issue.
As Green pressed on why he paused Project Thor scheme to rescue Bhs pension scheme ahead of sale to Chappell he rants abt planned new dealAs Green pressed on why he paused Project Thor scheme to rescue Bhs pension scheme ahead of sale to Chappell he rants abt planned new deal
Green annoyed that MPs have not accepted with unmitigated gratitude his pledge to play a role in resolving the #BHS pension deficit.Green annoyed that MPs have not accepted with unmitigated gratitude his pledge to play a role in resolving the #BHS pension deficit.
Graham won’t be knocked off course by Green’s antics though, referring to Dominic Chappell’s evidence from last week.Graham won’t be knocked off course by Green’s antics though, referring to Dominic Chappell’s evidence from last week.
He suggests that Green decided to sell BHS to Chappell for £1 to get the pension problem off his hands (once the regulator threw up hurdles to the Project Thor scheme).He suggests that Green decided to sell BHS to Chappell for £1 to get the pension problem off his hands (once the regulator threw up hurdles to the Project Thor scheme).
If you look out of the window, is the sky light or dark, asks Green sarcastically (and bafflingly).If you look out of the window, is the sky light or dark, asks Green sarcastically (and bafflingly).
He also denies that he threatened to pull the sale if Chappell contacted the pension regulator (as Chappell claimed last week).He also denies that he threatened to pull the sale if Chappell contacted the pension regulator (as Chappell claimed last week).
"It is inconceivable and more importantly impossible that I could stop Chappell going to regulator" - Philip Green"It is inconceivable and more importantly impossible that I could stop Chappell going to regulator" - Philip Green
11.16am BST11.16am BST
11:1611:16
Sky News’ Mark Kleinman reckons Green is making a substantial commitment to his former workers...Sky News’ Mark Kleinman reckons Green is making a substantial commitment to his former workers...
Green implies his contribution to fixing #BHS pension deficit will be well in excess of the £275m cost of paying PPF-level benefits.Green implies his contribution to fixing #BHS pension deficit will be well in excess of the £275m cost of paying PPF-level benefits.
11.11am BST11.11am BST
11:1111:11
Green: We will solve BHS pension crisisGreen: We will solve BHS pension crisis
The committee turn to Project Thor, Arcadia’s proposal to restructure the BHS pension scheme, which was suspended in 2014.The committee turn to Project Thor, Arcadia’s proposal to restructure the BHS pension scheme, which was suspended in 2014.
Green reveals that there has been contact with the regulator in recent days, saying snidely that.Green reveals that there has been contact with the regulator in recent days, saying snidely that.
The regulator made a phone call - maybe someone bought them a telephone.The regulator made a phone call - maybe someone bought them a telephone.
And Green hints that a deal is still possible to address the £571m deficit, saying “there does seem to be a light in the tunnel”.And Green hints that a deal is still possible to address the £571m deficit, saying “there does seem to be a light in the tunnel”.
Green declares that he wants to give a reassurance to BHS’s 20,000 pensioners that he will sort the problem out.Green declares that he wants to give a reassurance to BHS’s 20,000 pensioners that he will sort the problem out.
We want to find a solution for the 20,000 pensioners.We want to find a solution for the 20,000 pensioners.
Green argues that putting the scheme into the Pension Protection Fund (the PPF - the lifeboat for failed schemes) would not resolve the issue , as the schemes are quite complex, says Green.Green argues that putting the scheme into the Pension Protection Fund (the PPF - the lifeboat for failed schemes) would not resolve the issue , as the schemes are quite complex, says Green.
And he then pledges:And he then pledges:
But I believe it is resolvable, it is solvable. We will sort it, we will find a solution.But I believe it is resolvable, it is solvable. We will sort it, we will find a solution.
I want to gv assurance to 20,000 pensioners that there is an idea there to sort this in a correct way says Green. Will keep fund out of PPFI want to gv assurance to 20,000 pensioners that there is an idea there to sort this in a correct way says Green. Will keep fund out of PPF
Q: Does that mean that pensioners would get everything they are entitled to, asks Frank Field.Q: Does that mean that pensioners would get everything they are entitled to, asks Frank Field.
Green won’t make such a commitment, but repeats that his advisers are working on a solution, and it will be presented soon.Green won’t make such a commitment, but repeats that his advisers are working on a solution, and it will be presented soon.
[background: there are rumours that Green could set up a separate “Phoenix” fund to provide extra payments to BHS pensioners][background: there are rumours that Green could set up a separate “Phoenix” fund to provide extra payments to BHS pensioners]
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.14am BSTat 11.14am BST
10.58am BST10.58am BST
10:5810:58
Richard Graham MP suggests that Sir Philip Green met with pensions minister Steve Webb in 2012 about reducing BHS’s pension levy -- suggesting the issue was actually on his agenda.Richard Graham MP suggests that Sir Philip Green met with pensions minister Steve Webb in 2012 about reducing BHS’s pension levy -- suggesting the issue was actually on his agenda.
Green says he doesn't remember a meeting in 2012 with the then Pensions Minister, Steve Webb about reducing BHS's pension levy.Green says he doesn't remember a meeting in 2012 with the then Pensions Minister, Steve Webb about reducing BHS's pension levy.
Funny how Green found time to lobby pensions minister on £2m PPF levy in 2012 while not knowing about £££m deficit in the chrome 🤔Funny how Green found time to lobby pensions minister on £2m PPF levy in 2012 while not knowing about £££m deficit in the chrome 🤔
And then he lashes out again at Graham, demanding to know:And then he lashes out again at Graham, demanding to know:
Which bit of “don’t remember” do you find difficult?Which bit of “don’t remember” do you find difficult?
SNP MP Mhairi Black (who isn’t on the committee) can’t believe what she’s hearing:SNP MP Mhairi Black (who isn’t on the committee) can’t believe what she’s hearing:
The arrogance and sexism coming from Philip Green is astonishing! Feel like I'm listening to Del Boy giving evidence. #BHSThe arrogance and sexism coming from Philip Green is astonishing! Feel like I'm listening to Del Boy giving evidence. #BHS
Green getting into argument with MP over whether he can answer question before MP finished asking it..Green getting into argument with MP over whether he can answer question before MP finished asking it..
10.52am BST
10:52
Green: Stupid, stupid, idiotic decisions made
Conservative MP Richard Graham leads Green through the details of BHS pension deficit.
He gets him to agree that BHS was the sponsor for its pension scheme, and that the average BHS wage was £17,000, meaning a long career would deliver a pension of £8,500 per year.
So the scheme went from a surplus when you bought it, to a deficit in 2005.
Then you later proposed putting £10m per year into the fund to fix the deficit - how was that decision made?
Green again claims it’s nothing to do with him, and tried to blame others (such as pension trustee chair Margaret Downes).
I don’t want to pass this to other people, but there has to be some accountability.....
There have been some stupid, stupid, idiotic mistakes made.
Richard Graham MP doing a great job on pensions.pointing out how little #BHS staff earn & how little BHS paid in.
#BHS had 3 yr pension contribution holiday & then paid in only 4% of total pay bill, should have been 10%.
10.44am BST
10:44
Karen Buck MP has a valiant attempt to pin Green down about the meetings he had with BHS’s pension trustees.
You can’t expect me to remember what I did eight years, ago, he insists. He suggests Buck must have been a mind-reader in a previous life if she could remember such details, and should come to work for Arcadia.
Buck points out that if she were testifying to a committee, she’d know jolly well who she’s met with.
Updated
at 10.45am BST
10.43am BST
10:43
City analyst Louise Cooper shares the committee’s sense of disbelief:
pension contributions are a large cost, so he should know the numbers.To claim innocence is unbelievable https://t.co/Udw92wOsPy
10.38am BST
10:38
The MPs are simply not convinced that Green could have been so ignorant about the BHS pension scheme.
Iain Wright MP points out that the Arcadia chief famously once intervened to change BHS’s coat hangers, to save £400,000 per year. Would a man who did that really ignore the pensions of 11,000 staff?
Green insists that no-one brought the issue to his attention, while also claiming that he’s not blaming anyone else.
And he also repeats that he’s not a liar...
I am here, I’m happy to be accountable. I’m not a liar, I can’t tell you about things I’m not responsible.
Someone was asleep at the wheel about the pension issue, he concludes.
So luxury yachts have wheels?
A lot of other people have got questions to answer says Green on pension. Later says "somebody, maybe it was trustees, was asleep at wheel"
10.35am BST
10:35
Green keeps referring to female MPs on the committee as “your lady here” – which is going down as badly as you’d expect.
10.32am BST
10:32
Here’s Sir Philip Green’s apology to BHS staff (delivered at the start of the hearing)
“There certainly (was) no intent at all on my part for anything to be like this. It didn’t need to be like this and I just want to apologise to all the BHS people who have been involved in this.”
10.29am BST
10:29
Green apologises for not tackling BHS pensions earlier
Sir Philip Green is unhappy that MPs keep interrupting him, trying to pin him down on the pension problems.
He insists that he simply wasn’t involved until 2012 (!)
But we’ve been told that you’re a Napoleon of industry, explains Frank Field MP, the man in control of everything. We’re struggling to acclimatise to this new image of you...
Green looks hurt, saying:
I haven’t run away, I haven’t tried to run away.
He hits out at the “outrageous and pretty rude media coverage” in recent months, which have created quite the wrong impression.
And he then issues a second apology, for the pension deficit:
I‘m happy to apologise, I should have been involved earlier.
For whatever reason I wasn’t, but I should have been involved earlier.
Green just said that between 2000 and 2012 the pension scheme "was not on my table"
10.22am BST
10:22
Green rejects criticism over pensions
Onto the BHS pensions black hole....
Green says that the pension deficit should have been tackled as soon as he bought the company.
But he also argues that it’s not his fault, blaming “poor communication” on both sides. He also reveals he only spoke to the BHS pension trustees on a handful of occasions
Sir Philip Green: If BHS pension trustees and auditors had spoken to us on day we bought the company, we could have fixed this mess
Green says in perfect world BHS pension should have been tackled day he bought the company..
Green also tries to spread the blame around, saying a lot of money was paid to pension advisers -- £650,000 in the early days, rising to “north of £1.5m” by 2005-06.
The MPs are concerned that Green doesn’t seem to have been a very caring steward of the BHS pension fund. In 2000, it had a £43m surplus, before you began taking dividends out.
Tht’s not very fair, Green insists. “With due respect” I’ve explained that we put £750m back into the company.
I was not a trustee of the pension fund, he insists.
Q: But surely you are ultimately accountable for the pension fund?
Where’s this conversation taking us, demands Green - [perhaps suspecting that his wallet is being lined up for a hit]
Updated
at 10.23am BST
10.14am BST
10:14
Q: Does your wife ever share the details of the accounts of her offshore property company (which owned some BHS properties)?
No, says Green, shaking his head and chewing on his spectacles.
10.12am BST
10:12
Q: Why didn’t the hundreds of millions you say you put into BHS do much good?
Retail is difficult, snaps Green - if it wasn’t, anyone could do it.
And “without being rude”, he suggests Fuller should give it a go sometime.
I know that I wouldn’t be any good at it, Fuller smiles back.
Green to Richard Fuller MP: "Maybe without being rude in your next career you should try retail"
Richard Fuller with good response to Green: I wouldnt be any good at it, but at least I know that