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Sir Philip Green: 'stupid and idiotic' decisions made over BHS - live updates Sir Philip Green: 'stupid and idiotic' decisions made over BHS - live updates
(35 minutes later)
12.46pm BST
12:46
Green is now dishing out fashion advice to Jeremy Quin.
Green now telling MP to put glasses back on "you look better with your glasses on" - really don't think baiting MPs going to help him
Updated
at 12.46pm BST
12.43pm BST
12:43
The committee continue to push Sir Phillip Green about exactly how closely he knew Dominic Chappell, and when.
Green insists that he first met Chappell on February 3rd 2015.
Q: Meet often socially before then?
Green makes a “zero” sign with his finger and thumb.
Q: So why was Chappell telling his mates in 2014 that he was going to buy BHS? Was it a “fantasy land” idea?
Green suggests Chappell is a permanent resident of fantasy land.....
Was Chappell's assertion that he had done personal deal with Green "fantasy land" asks MP. "Ask him, he lives there," says Green
[Anyone know if Fantasy Land is a tax haven, ala Monaco?]
Updated
at 12.43pm BST
12.41pm BST
12:41
Green may be getting more confident - he tells Richard Fuller to ‘relax’ and stop butting in.
"Richard, you'll get your moment, relax," Sir Philip now openly mocking MPs on the Committee
12.37pm BST
12:37
12.36pm BST
12:36
Q: Would you have done the BHS deal if Chappell hasn’t passed Goldman Sachs’ smell test?
No, Green insists. A million percent no.
But Richard Fuller MP suggests that Green must have had concerns -- otherwise why vet Chappell at all?
Begs the question, if vetting of Chappell was so important, why didnt Green pay for it? Goldman Sachs did it for free
Q: So will you deal with Goldman Sachs again?
Green won’t answer this question - saying he’s not blaming anyone (?!).
He defends choosing to sell to Chappell, as he didn’t want to sell it to someone who would have put BHS into administration.
If the business plan laid out in 2015 had been followed by the new owners, the company would have survived, he adds
[Reminder: BHS’s former finance officer also told the committee last week that BHS could have been saved, with better leadership from Chappell]
12.31pm BST
12:31
Green denies that he blundered by not Googling Dominic Chappell and discovering he was a former bankrupt.
I checked Google, and found that Walt Disney and HJ Heinz were made bankrupt, he says. Businessmen go bankrupt from time to time,
Q: But your chief financial officer also knew he’d been involved with a convicted fraudster....
Green says he didn’t know the full details of the links between Chappell and Sutton.
Green says that he didn't know that Chappell was introduced to BHS deal by Paul Sutton, a convicted fraudster
12.26pm BST
12:26
Green: Olswang and Grant Thornton gave Chappell credibility
Philip Green seems to have abandoned his pledge not to blame anyone else.
He tells the committee that top brass at law firm Olswang, and accountants Grant Thornton, helped to give Dominic Chappell vital credibility.
I took a great deal of comfort that those two firms were representing Chappell, says Green, even though he suspect “they didn’t know the guy from a hole in the wall” before the deal began.
Green now saying David Roberts of Olswang "knee deep" in deal and Peter Martin at Grant Thornton also involved
Neither Grant Thornton or Olswang knew Chappell from "a hole in the wall", says Green. One of them bid for the work blind, not knowing
Updated
at 12.27pm BST
12.23pm BST
12:23
The committee are pushing Green about exactly how Dominic Chappell came on the scene....
"I try to avoid email and you guys turning up lots of bits of paper "says Green to MPs .. did he really just say that?
Green also tries to dob Goldman Sachs in, citing a congratulatory email from top GS banker Anthony Gutman to Chappell.
Green just shafted Anthony Gutman at Goldman Sachs, reading out congratulatory email to Chappell. "That's hardly saying don't deal w him"
12.17pm BST
12:17
Q: So, how did talks with Dominic Chappell begin?
Green says that he didn’t meet Chappell until he’d been “independently vetted” by Goldman Sachs.
[Background: last week, Chappell told the committee that he learned via Paul Sutton that BHS was for sale]
Green reveals that Paul Budge, Arcadia’s finance director, asked for an affidavit from Chappell stating that there was no link to Sutton.
Q: Why would you do that?
There was a point when we realised there was a possible connection between the men, so we wanted a pledge that they weren’t linked, says Green.
The Sunday Times’s Oliver Shah has an important insight on this point:
Green says link between Sutton + Chappell was "mentioned". His PA seems to have known - emailed Sutton c/o Chappell pic.twitter.com/YMzLYbsze8
That last tweet also shows Green was personally meeting Paul Sutton as late as May 2014
Updated
at 12.18pm BST
12.11pm BST12.11pm BST
12:1112:11
Conservative MP Amanda Solloway now takes up the questioning, asking Green about how the sale of BHS unfolded.Conservative MP Amanda Solloway now takes up the questioning, asking Green about how the sale of BHS unfolded.
He says Robin Saunders, a top City banker, had flagged up “en passant” that she knew of a well-funded individual who was interested in buying the group.He says Robin Saunders, a top City banker, had flagged up “en passant” that she knew of a well-funded individual who was interested in buying the group.
He confirms that this was Paul Sutton, a convicted fraudster, who Green says he’d not met previously.He confirms that this was Paul Sutton, a convicted fraudster, who Green says he’d not met previously.
Chappell didn’t come onto the scene until 3 February 2015, Green insists - sinking the idea that Chappell was a leading light in Sutton’s deal team.Chappell didn’t come onto the scene until 3 February 2015, Green insists - sinking the idea that Chappell was a leading light in Sutton’s deal team.
And Green then says that a mysterious file on Sutton landed on his desk, which prompted Arcadia to “disengage” with him.And Green then says that a mysterious file on Sutton landed on his desk, which prompted Arcadia to “disengage” with him.
Green says he decided not to deal further with Paul Sutton after a file arrived on him from an anonymous source.Green says he decided not to deal further with Paul Sutton after a file arrived on him from an anonymous source.
Q: Robin Saunders told us that she warned you in June 2013 that Sutton was discredited....yet you still continued to deal with him.Q: Robin Saunders told us that she warned you in June 2013 that Sutton was discredited....yet you still continued to deal with him.
Not true, Green insists - we broke off talk as soon as the file arrived. Not true, Green insists - we broke off talk as soon as the file arrived [he’s vague about when it turned up, though]
Q: Did you lambast your team for not discovering problems with Sutton?Q: Did you lambast your team for not discovering problems with Sutton?
Green pauses, looking suspicious, and then asks if the committee have a note saying that happened (!).Green pauses, looking suspicious, and then asks if the committee have a note saying that happened (!).
It seems they do not.It seems they do not.
Robin Saunders said Paul Sutton was discredited in June 2013. "The file didn't read very well and that was the end of it," said GreenRobin Saunders said Paul Sutton was discredited in June 2013. "The file didn't read very well and that was the end of it," said Green
UpdatedUpdated
at 12.12pm BST at 12.17pm BST
12.04pm BST12.04pm BST
12:0412:04
Oooof, new evidence that Green told chairman of pension trustees that he "jeopardised" sale to Chappell by talking pension contributionsOooof, new evidence that Green told chairman of pension trustees that he "jeopardised" sale to Chappell by talking pension contributions
12.03pm BST
12:03
And we’re back... Reminder you can watch the session in the top of this blog - or on Parliament Live.
Green seems in jovial mood:
Welcome back, says chair Ian Wright. "we've said a prayer together," says Green..
Jeremy Quin MP turns to the sale of BHS to ex-bankrupt Dominic Chappell.
Back from break. Straight into Chappell question. "Lucky man, eh?" Green says. Pretty flippant to 11,000 #BHS staff
Green denies Chappell’s claim that he was initially led to believe he could buy BHS without its pension liabilities.
There was no question that was ever on the table once we began serious negotiations, Green insists.
Q: But this looks like a classic bait-and-switch...
Not so, Green says
Q: Chappell says he wasn’t given access to the BHS trustees or the pension regulator.
That’s not true, Green says, suggesting that Chappell actually met with Chris Martin, the head of the pension trustees.
Q: Chris Martin has notes of a conversation with you, the day after the deal was done, in which you say he potentially jeopardised the deal by telling Chappell the annual pension contributions could rise to £30m.
Green doesn’t really address this point.
MP says Green spoke to pf chair after BHS sale + said potentially jeopardised the deal by telling Chappell pension scheme required £30m a yr
11.53am BST
11:53
Here’s our first news story on Sir Philip Green’s testimony, from Graham Ruddick:
Related: BHS pension problems can be solved, Sir Philip Green tells MPs
11.52am BST
11:52
Halftime report: Apology and aggression from Green
That was one of the most combative, sometimes aggressive performances I’ve seen from a businessman before MPs.
So, where do we stand, as the participants take a quick break?
“There certainly was no intent at all on my part for anything to be like this. It didn’t need to be like this and I just want to apologise to all the BHS people who have been involved in this”.
We want to find a solution for the 20,000 pensioners.
11.40am BST
11:40
One finally final question before the break - was Green unhappy that Arcadia chairman Lord Grabiner didn’t even turn up for the meeting when BHS was sold?
Green declines to put the boot into Grabiner, suggesting he may have had other commitments.
And now a 15 minute break - after which, we’ll hear about the decision to sell BHS to Dominic Chappell....
What first attracted you to ex bankrupt Chappell? "If you want to start that, we can't take a break" says Green, one of his better points
11.38am BST
11:38
Green also suggests that he did the right thing for BHS.
I could simply have put the company into administration, he argues, and addressed the pension issue that way.
"If I just wanted to be a ruthless businessman we'd have taken the biz through an admin process ourselves". Would have crystallised pension
And he also takes another pop at the recent press coverage:
In the last four weeks, I could be a murderer for the way they write about me.
11.36am BST
11:36
Last questions before a quick break.
Jeremy Quin MP asks Green whether he agrees that his failure to keep a closer eye on the BHS pension scheme was a corporate governance failure.
Green doesn’t accept the charge, and then perks up when the House of Commons bells ring. Break time, he smiles.
No Mr Green, that’s the bell for prayers, Frank Field explains gently.
Is that for you or for me, asks the Arcadia boss.
For both of us hopefully, Field murmers.
Green, who looks desperate for a break, repeats that he wants everyone to know that he’s committed to finding a soltuion to the BHS pension scheme
There’s nothing I’m going to tell you that you can’t go and check up.,.... I’m not going to tell you lies.
That’s the third time Green has promised he’s not fibbing....
11.28am BST
11:28
Richard Graham MP is pushing Green on Project Thor.
He suggesting that the scheme was suspended once the regulator demanded more details about exactly what Arcadia would putting into the BHS scheme.
And he produces an email from the chair of the BHS pension trustees, which says Green was unhappy that the regulator was “Trawling through bullshit from 10 years ago”.
Graham points out that Green had originally proposed selling BHS to Dominic Chappell free of its pension liabilities. Is that because you thought Project Thor would have been executed first?
Green won’t engage.... snarling:
“I’m sorry, are we in the same room? I can’t deal with this”
And he appeals to committee chair Frank Field to call Graham off, before repeating that he will solve the pension issue.
As Green pressed on why he paused Project Thor scheme to rescue Bhs pension scheme ahead of sale to Chappell he rants abt planned new deal
Green annoyed that MPs have not accepted with unmitigated gratitude his pledge to play a role in resolving the #BHS pension deficit.
Graham won’t be knocked off course by Green’s antics though, referring to Dominic Chappell’s evidence from last week.
He suggests that Green decided to sell BHS to Chappell for £1 to get the pension problem off his hands (once the regulator threw up hurdles to the Project Thor scheme).
If you look out of the window, is the sky light or dark, asks Green sarcastically (and bafflingly).
He also denies that he threatened to pull the sale if Chappell contacted the pension regulator (as Chappell claimed last week).
"It is inconceivable and more importantly impossible that I could stop Chappell going to regulator" - Philip Green
11.16am BST
11:16
Sky News’ Mark Kleinman reckons Green is making a substantial commitment to his former workers...
Green implies his contribution to fixing #BHS pension deficit will be well in excess of the £275m cost of paying PPF-level benefits.
11.11am BST
11:11
Green: We will solve BHS pension crisis
The committee turn to Project Thor, Arcadia’s proposal to restructure the BHS pension scheme, which was suspended in 2014.
Green reveals that there has been contact with the regulator in recent days, saying snidely that.
The regulator made a phone call - maybe someone bought them a telephone.
And Green hints that a deal is still possible to address the £571m deficit, saying “there does seem to be a light in the tunnel”.
Green declares that he wants to give a reassurance to BHS’s 20,000 pensioners that he will sort the problem out.
We want to find a solution for the 20,000 pensioners.
Green argues that putting the scheme into the Pension Protection Fund (the PPF - the lifeboat for failed schemes) would not resolve the issue , as the schemes are quite complex, says Green.
And he then pledges:
But I believe it is resolvable, it is solvable. We will sort it, we will find a solution.
I want to gv assurance to 20,000 pensioners that there is an idea there to sort this in a correct way says Green. Will keep fund out of PPF
Q: Does that mean that pensioners would get everything they are entitled to, asks Frank Field.
Green won’t make such a commitment, but repeats that his advisers are working on a solution, and it will be presented soon.
[background: there are rumours that Green could set up a separate “Phoenix” fund to provide extra payments to BHS pensioners]
Updated
at 11.14am BST
10.58am BST
10:58
Richard Graham MP suggests that Sir Philip Green met with pensions minister Steve Webb in 2012 about reducing BHS’s pension levy -- suggesting the issue was actually on his agenda.
Green says he doesn't remember a meeting in 2012 with the then Pensions Minister, Steve Webb about reducing BHS's pension levy.
Funny how Green found time to lobby pensions minister on £2m PPF levy in 2012 while not knowing about £££m deficit in the chrome 🤔
And then he lashes out again at Graham, demanding to know:
Which bit of “don’t remember” do you find difficult?
SNP MP Mhairi Black (who isn’t on the committee) can’t believe what she’s hearing:
The arrogance and sexism coming from Philip Green is astonishing! Feel like I'm listening to Del Boy giving evidence. #BHS
Green getting into argument with MP over whether he can answer question before MP finished asking it..