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Impeachment hearings: Fiona Hill rejects Republicans' ‘fictional narrative’ Ukraine meddled in US election – live Impeachment hearings: Sondland was ‘involved in domestic political errand’, Hill testifies – live
(32 minutes later)
Military aid was withheld by Trump to express dissatisfaction or increase pressure, state department aide Holmes testifies Russia expert says she ‘had a couple testy encounters’ with Sondland and warned him ‘this is going to blow up’
Republican Mike Turner is up. He says he has evidence of the problem of hearsay. He yells at Hill for a few minutes and now he’s yelling at Holmes. He runs his time out with no question.
Republican John Ratcliffe asks Holmes about the 26 July Trump-Sondland phone call. Ratcliffe is after a – subtle? – point. The point is, if Trump found out on the phone that his supposed extortion plot with Ukraine was working, why then did he immediately bring up the rapper A$AP Rocky? Wouldn’t a successful bribe-r – this seems to be Ratcliffe’s arguement – wouldn’t someone who had just received news that his bribery and extortion plot in Ukraine had just come together have talked more about it or savored it?
Holmes said the Ukraine part of the conversation was very brief.
Ratcliffe asks Holmes what he heard Trump say about A$AP Rocky. Holmes did not hear that part. Ratcliffe wonders why Holmes just heard the Ukraine part and not the rest. Holmes says Sondland stopped moving the phone away from his ear.
Under questioning from Democrat Jim Himes, Hill is explaining why the points of “evidence” brandished by Nunes that Ukraine was tampering in the 2016 campaign against Trump are .. not evidence of that.
Hill said a lot of foreign leaders talked trash about Trump before the election, but that did not make Trump turn against those countries the way he reportedly loathes and resents Ukraine, she says. So why did he turn so decisively against Ukraine?
Now the Republicans. Nunes hands to Jim Jordan who asks Holmes why Taylor did not at first mention to investigators that Holmes told him about the 26th July lunch with Sondland.
Holmes says he did not tell Taylor right away because Taylor was on the front lines. Then Holmes went on vacation for a week, when he came back he referred to the call in a meeting with Taylor and Taylor nodded, Holmes said. Holmes thought Taylor had been briefed on the call.
“My main takeaway was, the president does not care about Ukraine... that was the takeaway” and what he talked about with people on the subject of the call, Holmes said.
Jordan mocks Taylor and Holmes for Holmes’ relatively late entry in the process.
Holmes said his account of the call with Trump might not have stuck out for Taylor because it was part of an overwhelming number of indicators amounting to common knowledge that the president was pressing for investigations of Biden and did not care about other stuff.
Holmes is barely allowed to testify, Jordan interrupts him repeatedly despite Schiff’s gavel.
“I believe that ambassador Taylor did already know... it was not news to him that the president was asking for a Biden investigation... it’s exactly my point. I briefed the call in detail... I refer to the call and everyone is nodding... of course that’s what’s going on... everyone by that point agreed. It was obvious what the president was pressing for.”
Jordan repeatedly interrupts Holmes.
Hill now describes the 10 July White House meeting in which Sondland described the deal with Mulvaney of a meeting for investigations.Hill now describes the 10 July White House meeting in which Sondland described the deal with Mulvaney of a meeting for investigations.
“There was no yelling or shouting,” Hill says. “That’s some embellishment... Sondland was in an exchange with Vindman... ‘we have an agreement to have a meeting’.”“There was no yelling or shouting,” Hill says. “That’s some embellishment... Sondland was in an exchange with Vindman... ‘we have an agreement to have a meeting’.”
They went downstairs to the Ward room though Perry had left, Hill says.They went downstairs to the Ward room though Perry had left, Hill says.
“When I came in, Gordon Sondland was basically saying look, I have a deal with chief of staff Mulvaney that we have a meeting if the Ukrainians announce investigations of Burisma...“When I came in, Gordon Sondland was basically saying look, I have a deal with chief of staff Mulvaney that we have a meeting if the Ukrainians announce investigations of Burisma...
“I cut it off right there... it was clear then that Burisma was code for the Bidens...“I cut it off right there... it was clear then that Burisma was code for the Bidens...
“So I cut off this line and I said to Ambassador Sondland look... we have to properly prepare this... and we really shouldn’t be talking about this in front of our colleagues from Ukraine...“So I cut off this line and I said to Ambassador Sondland look... we have to properly prepare this... and we really shouldn’t be talking about this in front of our colleagues from Ukraine...
“We asked our colleagues to wait outside of the door in the corridor..;“We asked our colleagues to wait outside of the door in the corridor..;
“I pushed back on ambassador Sondland... look I know there’s differences about when we should have this meeting...“I pushed back on ambassador Sondland... look I know there’s differences about when we should have this meeting...
“Ambassador Sondland then said OK, fair enough. Ambassador Volker didn’t say anything at this particular juncture.”“Ambassador Sondland then said OK, fair enough. Ambassador Volker didn’t say anything at this particular juncture.”
Hill then spoke with Bolton who told her to talk to Eisenberg.Hill then spoke with Bolton who told her to talk to Eisenberg.
Schiff is back.Schiff is back.
He asks Hill about the dual loyalty charge leveled on Tuesday against Vindman.He asks Hill about the dual loyalty charge leveled on Tuesday against Vindman.
“I think it’s very unfortunate. This is a country of immigrants... with the exception of very few...“I think it’s very unfortunate. This is a country of immigrants... with the exception of very few...
Hill is asked about Tim Morrison, her successor, saying that Hill had questioned Lt Col Alexander Vindman’s judgment.Hill is asked about Tim Morrison, her successor, saying that Hill had questioned Lt Col Alexander Vindman’s judgment.
In her opinion, Vindman did not have the political antennae to deal effectively with the informal policy channel emerging on Ukraine, she said.In her opinion, Vindman did not have the political antennae to deal effectively with the informal policy channel emerging on Ukraine, she said.
“That does not mean in any way that I was questioning his overall judgment or his expertise. He is excellent... this is a very different issue.“That does not mean in any way that I was questioning his overall judgment or his expertise. He is excellent... this is a very different issue.
“Col Vindman was justifiably alarmed when he realized that there was this highly political aspect of the meeting that we were engaged in.”“Col Vindman was justifiably alarmed when he realized that there was this highly political aspect of the meeting that we were engaged in.”
Hill says that Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in foreign policy, and the two had diverged.”Hill says that Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in foreign policy, and the two had diverged.”
“I did say to him, Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up and here we are.”“I did say to him, Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up and here we are.”
Hill continues:Hill continues:
“Ambassador Sondland is not wrong that he had been given a different remit than we had been... I wasn’t really being fair to ambassador Sondland, because he was carrying out” what he had been directed to.“Ambassador Sondland is not wrong that he had been given a different remit than we had been... I wasn’t really being fair to ambassador Sondland, because he was carrying out” what he had been directed to.
Nunes flies to Trump’s defense. He says Trump was concerned about 2016 and Burisma, throws in the Steele dossier and “if that was the concern of the president... and it’s the concern of ambassador Sondland to ensure that meetings occurred...I’m a little, I mean”– Nunes sputters out.Nunes flies to Trump’s defense. He says Trump was concerned about 2016 and Burisma, throws in the Steele dossier and “if that was the concern of the president... and it’s the concern of ambassador Sondland to ensure that meetings occurred...I’m a little, I mean”– Nunes sputters out.
“My point Mr Nunes,” Hill says, “is that we at the NSC were not told either by the president directly or by Mr Bolton ...” that we were to be focused on these matters.“My point Mr Nunes,” Hill says, “is that we at the NSC were not told either by the president directly or by Mr Bolton ...” that we were to be focused on these matters.
“I was not given a directive. In fact I was given a directive on July 10 very clearly by Ambassador Bolton to stay out of domestic politics.”“I was not given a directive. In fact I was given a directive on July 10 very clearly by Ambassador Bolton to stay out of domestic politics.”
Now Castor is asking Hill about Sondland’s account of a coffee he had with Hill as she was leaving.Now Castor is asking Hill about Sondland’s account of a coffee he had with Hill as she was leaving.
This is an action-packed few minutes of testimony. Castor and Nunes have tried to coax something from Hill and seem to have gotten something they did not bargain for.This is an action-packed few minutes of testimony. Castor and Nunes have tried to coax something from Hill and seem to have gotten something they did not bargain for.
Did they have coffee?Did they have coffee?
“This is the federal government, we don’t have coffee machines...” Hill says. “The coffee that Ambassador Sondland and I shared..[was when] asked me to meet him for coffee in Jackson Hole Wyoming in 2018 in August..” a year before she left.“This is the federal government, we don’t have coffee machines...” Hill says. “The coffee that Ambassador Sondland and I shared..[was when] asked me to meet him for coffee in Jackson Hole Wyoming in 2018 in August..” a year before she left.
But her meeting with Sondland before she left was not that, she says. She, Sondland, Vindman and a state department official met, and there was no coffee. Sondland testified that Hill was upset.But her meeting with Sondland before she left was not that, she says. She, Sondland, Vindman and a state department official met, and there was no coffee. Sondland testified that Hill was upset.
She says she “had a couple testy encounters” with him.She says she “had a couple testy encounters” with him.
Then she says it’s complicated for a woman in a professional environment to demonstrate anger.Then she says it’s complicated for a woman in a professional environment to demonstrate anger.
In the exit meeting, “I was actually to be honest angry with him. I hate to say it but when women show anger it’s not often appreciated, it’s often put off to emotional issues... what I was angry about was that he wasn’t coordinating with us... he wasn’t fully telling us about all the meetings he was having...”In the exit meeting, “I was actually to be honest angry with him. I hate to say it but when women show anger it’s not often appreciated, it’s often put off to emotional issues... what I was angry about was that he wasn’t coordinating with us... he wasn’t fully telling us about all the meetings he was having...”
Nunes asks Hill if she briefed the president about concerns about Hunter Biden, Burisma and corruption.Nunes asks Hill if she briefed the president about concerns about Hunter Biden, Burisma and corruption.
“The whole briefing process didn’t really work in the way that you’re suggesting there...” she says. “Just to be very clear, Ukraine was not a top foreign policy concern in that period.. the briefings would take place when there was a scheduled meeting with a Ukrainian head of state, and as we know there have not been too many of those.”“The whole briefing process didn’t really work in the way that you’re suggesting there...” she says. “Just to be very clear, Ukraine was not a top foreign policy concern in that period.. the briefings would take place when there was a scheduled meeting with a Ukrainian head of state, and as we know there have not been too many of those.”
And as we know there have not been too many of those – BURN.And as we know there have not been too many of those – BURN.
Nunes is unspooling the debunked conspiracy theory about Joe Biden calling off an investigation of Burisma because Hunter Biden was on the company’s board. In fact the investigation had been shelved when Biden in his official role as vice president and acting in coordination with unanimous US policy made the call.Nunes is unspooling the debunked conspiracy theory about Joe Biden calling off an investigation of Burisma because Hunter Biden was on the company’s board. In fact the investigation had been shelved when Biden in his official role as vice president and acting in coordination with unanimous US policy made the call.
Nunes’ technique is to ask Holmes whether he knew about a bunch of events in a timeline of the theory, Holmes answers No to each. Hill didn’t know either.Nunes’ technique is to ask Holmes whether he knew about a bunch of events in a timeline of the theory, Holmes answers No to each. Hill didn’t know either.
Hill said she recommended that Rick Perry lead the US delegation to Zelenskiy’s inauguration. Because he had deep knowledge of the energy industry. And Perry was a good advocate of US business. And Ukraine has an “Achilles heel” as the main transit point for gas from Russia to Europe.Hill said she recommended that Rick Perry lead the US delegation to Zelenskiy’s inauguration. Because he had deep knowledge of the energy industry. And Perry was a good advocate of US business. And Ukraine has an “Achilles heel” as the main transit point for gas from Russia to Europe.
Castor turns to Holmes. What did he think of the US delegation to the inauguration?Castor turns to Holmes. What did he think of the US delegation to the inauguration?
He thought it was fine. High-level enough.He thought it was fine. High-level enough.
Now back to Nunes. “I think it’s a good time to segue to Burisma,” Nunes says.Now back to Nunes. “I think it’s a good time to segue to Burisma,” Nunes says.
Castor is back, asking questions of Hill.Castor is back, asking questions of Hill.
The topic is why Pence did not attend the Zelenskiy inauguration.The topic is why Pence did not attend the Zelenskiy inauguration.
Hill refers to the testimony on Tuesday of Jennifer Williams, the Pence aide.Hill refers to the testimony on Tuesday of Jennifer Williams, the Pence aide.
Now we’re on to Trump’s May meeting with Hungarian leader Viktor Orban.Now we’re on to Trump’s May meeting with Hungarian leader Viktor Orban.
This is all over the place.This is all over the place.
Nunes: “do you know Sergey Lutschenko?” the journalist and former parliamentarian.Nunes: “do you know Sergey Lutschenko?” the journalist and former parliamentarian.
Holmes does.Holmes does.
Nunes goes off on the Lutschenko- Nellie Ohr- Fusion GPS conspiracy theory. “He was in the parliament at the time... he provided the black ledger... is that seen as credible information?”Nunes goes off on the Lutschenko- Nellie Ohr- Fusion GPS conspiracy theory. “He was in the parliament at the time... he provided the black ledger... is that seen as credible information?”
“Yes.”“Yes.”
Nunes: “The black ledger is credible?”Nunes: “The black ledger is credible?”
“Yes.”“Yes.”
Nunes: but wait, Mueller did not! find it credible.Nunes: but wait, Mueller did not! find it credible.
Holmes: “I’m not aware that Bob Mueller did not find it credible,” but it was used as evidence in other criminal proceedings.Holmes: “I’m not aware that Bob Mueller did not find it credible,” but it was used as evidence in other criminal proceedings.
Nunes: Didn’t Lutschenko want to hurt Trump?Nunes: Didn’t Lutschenko want to hurt Trump?
Holmes said Lutschenko was motivated by his usual motivation: “To expose corruption in Ukraine.”Holmes said Lutschenko was motivated by his usual motivation: “To expose corruption in Ukraine.”
Nunes: Didn’t Lutschenko admit wanting to hurt Trump?”Nunes: Didn’t Lutschenko admit wanting to hurt Trump?”
Holmes: “He has not said that to me. If he said that to you I’ll take your word for it.”Holmes: “He has not said that to me. If he said that to you I’ll take your word for it.”
Nunes is attacking the opponents of corruption in Ukraine while advancing the Giuliani-Lutsenko narrative.Nunes is attacking the opponents of corruption in Ukraine while advancing the Giuliani-Lutsenko narrative.
Castor is asking Holmes to describe the effectiveness of the Javelins.Castor is asking Holmes to describe the effectiveness of the Javelins.
“They’re an important strategic deterrence,” he says. “A very important symbolic message to the Ukrainian military.”“They’re an important strategic deterrence,” he says. “A very important symbolic message to the Ukrainian military.”
Ukrainians have offered to buy more, he says.Ukrainians have offered to buy more, he says.
Castor notes that the consensus of the interagency is now to supply the Javelins.Castor notes that the consensus of the interagency is now to supply the Javelins.
Then Nunes takes over.Then Nunes takes over.
Hill talks about all the state department officials she was in contact with about her concerns about the campaign against Yovanovitch.Hill talks about all the state department officials she was in contact with about her concerns about the campaign against Yovanovitch.
Castor asks if she wanted the US to provide Ukraine with Javelin anti-tank missiles. She says she was not before she came into government in 2017, but after she came in “I changed my mind.”Castor asks if she wanted the US to provide Ukraine with Javelin anti-tank missiles. She says she was not before she came into government in 2017, but after she came in “I changed my mind.”
Castor turns to Holmes.Castor turns to Holmes.
Castor is trying to hang Sondland out to dry again, insinuating that Sondland was not so close to Trump as Trump represented.Castor is trying to hang Sondland out to dry again, insinuating that Sondland was not so close to Trump as Trump represented.
Hill said Sondland said “That it was the president who had put him in charge of this.”Hill said Sondland said “That it was the president who had put him in charge of this.”
Hill said she was concerned about “the removal of our ambassador” despite the president’s “perfect right to do so.” The smear campaign “was completely unnecessary” she felt.Hill said she was concerned about “the removal of our ambassador” despite the president’s “perfect right to do so.” The smear campaign “was completely unnecessary” she felt.
She had a second cause for concern: “It was very clear at this point that there was let’s just say a different channel in operation... it was domestic and political in nature... and these two things had diverged.”She had a second cause for concern: “It was very clear at this point that there was let’s just say a different channel in operation... it was domestic and political in nature... and these two things had diverged.”
Castor asks Hill about Volker.Castor asks Hill about Volker.
“Ambassador Volker is an extraordinarly accomplished diplomat,” Hill says. “The truth that we’re trying to get at, I know ambassador Volker very well, on a personal level as well.”“Ambassador Volker is an extraordinarly accomplished diplomat,” Hill says. “The truth that we’re trying to get at, I know ambassador Volker very well, on a personal level as well.”
Now to Sondland. How did Hill learn of his role?Now to Sondland. How did Hill learn of his role?
She says they worked closely with the EU on Ukraine matters, and she was in contact with Sondland there. “It was perfectly logical that Ambassador Sondland would play some kind of role” on Ukraine.She says they worked closely with the EU on Ukraine matters, and she was in contact with Sondland there. “It was perfectly logical that Ambassador Sondland would play some kind of role” on Ukraine.
But when Sondland presented himself as in charge, Hill was concerned because Yovanovitch had just been recalled.But when Sondland presented himself as in charge, Hill was concerned because Yovanovitch had just been recalled.
“I asked him quite bluntly” in a meeting after the May inauguration about his role, she says. “He said he was in charge of Ukraine, and I said ‘who put you in charge?’ and he said ‘the president’.”“I asked him quite bluntly” in a meeting after the May inauguration about his role, she says. “He said he was in charge of Ukraine, and I said ‘who put you in charge?’ and he said ‘the president’.”