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Impeachment hearings: Sondland was ‘involved in domestic political errand’, Hill testifies – live Impeachment hearings: Sondland was ‘involved in domestic political errand’, Hill testifies – live
(32 minutes later)
Russia expert says she ‘had a couple testy encounters’ with Sondland and warned him ‘this is going to blow up’Russia expert says she ‘had a couple testy encounters’ with Sondland and warned him ‘this is going to blow up’
White House: The Democrats are “motivated by a sick hatred” for Trump
Trump’s press secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement: “These two witnesses, just like the rest, have no personal or direct knowledge regarding why U.S. aid was temporarily withheld.”
She accused House Democrats leading the impeachment inquiry of “being motivated by a sick hatred for President Trump and their rabid desire to overturn the 2016 election.” And echoing House Intelligence chair Adam Schiff, Grisham said: “The American people deserve better.”
Schiff closed the last day of scheduled public impeachment hearings by saying, “There is nothing more dangerous than an unethical president who believes they are above the law,” Schiff says. “We are better than that.”
A group of Republican senators met with White House officials to discuss strategies for an impeachment trial, the Washington Post reports.
If the House decides to impeach Trump, he will be tried in the Republican-controlled Senate. A group of Republican senators met with the White House counsel Pat Cipollone, the acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, as well as the president’s son-in-law and adviser, Jared Kushner, and the counsellor Kellyanne Conway, to discuss strategy, the Post reports, citing officials familiar with the meeting.
Schiff has closed with a strong rebuttal of each Republican line of defense and ends with a declaration.Schiff has closed with a strong rebuttal of each Republican line of defense and ends with a declaration.
“In my mind, there is nothing more dangerous than an unethical president who believes they are above the law,” Schiff says. “We are better than that. Adjourned.”“In my mind, there is nothing more dangerous than an unethical president who believes they are above the law,” Schiff says. “We are better than that. Adjourned.”
Gavel. Applause in the hall, as in past days.Gavel. Applause in the hall, as in past days.
Nunes has delivered his closing statement, calling the hearings a “show trial” and quoting Madison on the tyranny of the majority.Nunes has delivered his closing statement, calling the hearings a “show trial” and quoting Madison on the tyranny of the majority.
Schiff is delivering his closing statement.Schiff is delivering his closing statement.
The fifth – and final? – day of public impeachment hearings is drawing to a close. Here are five key takeaways:The fifth – and final? – day of public impeachment hearings is drawing to a close. Here are five key takeaways:
1 Ukraine scheme ‘very clear’1 Ukraine scheme ‘very clear’
In perhaps the most meticulous testimony yet, Fiona Hill, a former National Security Council official, testified it was “very clear” that US officials had made a White House meeting for the Ukrainian president contingent on an announcement of investigations into Joe Biden and 2016 election interference.In perhaps the most meticulous testimony yet, Fiona Hill, a former National Security Council official, testified it was “very clear” that US officials had made a White House meeting for the Ukrainian president contingent on an announcement of investigations into Joe Biden and 2016 election interference.
“It became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016,” she said.“It became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016,” she said.
2 A ‘domestic political errand’ in Ukraine2 A ‘domestic political errand’ in Ukraine
Hill said she clashed with Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, who was one of the officials working to consummate the scheme. Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in national security policy, and the two had diverged,” she said.Hill said she clashed with Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, who was one of the officials working to consummate the scheme. Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in national security policy, and the two had diverged,” she said.
“I did say to him, ‘Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up’. And here we are.”“I did say to him, ‘Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up’. And here we are.”
3 ‘It was obvious what the president was pressing for’3 ‘It was obvious what the president was pressing for’
David Holmes, a state department aide in Kiev, described a cell phone conversation at a restaurant in which he overheard Trump ask Sondland about “investigations” and heard Sondland tell Trump the Ukrainians had agreed to them.David Holmes, a state department aide in Kiev, described a cell phone conversation at a restaurant in which he overheard Trump ask Sondland about “investigations” and heard Sondland tell Trump the Ukrainians had agreed to them.
Everyone in the embassy in Kiev came to understand that Rudy Giuliani and Trump were pressing Ukraine to announce an investigation related to Joe Biden, Holmes said: “It was obvious what the president was pressing for.”Everyone in the embassy in Kiev came to understand that Rudy Giuliani and Trump were pressing Ukraine to announce an investigation related to Joe Biden, Holmes said: “It was obvious what the president was pressing for.”
4 Hill warns Republicans not to spread Russian propaganda4 Hill warns Republicans not to spread Russian propaganda
Hill warned Republicans to stop peddling Russian propaganda in the form of conspiracy theories that Ukraine tampered in the 2016 presidential election. “I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests,” she said.Hill warned Republicans to stop peddling Russian propaganda in the form of conspiracy theories that Ukraine tampered in the 2016 presidential election. “I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests,” she said.
Nevertheless the top Republican on the committee, Devin Nunes, and others pursued lines of questioning to advance various strands of the theory.Nevertheless the top Republican on the committee, Devin Nunes, and others pursued lines of questioning to advance various strands of the theory.
5 What comes next5 What comes next
After five days and 12 public witnesses, the public phase of impeachment hearings appeared to draw to a close. In concluding remarks, Nunes called the hearings “a show trial.”After five days and 12 public witnesses, the public phase of impeachment hearings appeared to draw to a close. In concluding remarks, Nunes called the hearings “a show trial.”
But House intelligence committee chairman Adam Schiff said that the mountain of witness testimony added up to a compelling and urgent case that “Trump put his personal and political interest above the United States”. The committee was expected to begin work immediately on a report to be submitted to the judiciary committee, which could then draft and vote on articles of impeachment.But House intelligence committee chairman Adam Schiff said that the mountain of witness testimony added up to a compelling and urgent case that “Trump put his personal and political interest above the United States”. The committee was expected to begin work immediately on a report to be submitted to the judiciary committee, which could then draft and vote on articles of impeachment.
Hill tells Democrat Sean Maloney that she does not buy Sondland’s claim that he, Sondland, did not understand for much of the summer that “Burisma” meant “Biden”.Hill tells Democrat Sean Maloney that she does not buy Sondland’s claim that he, Sondland, did not understand for much of the summer that “Burisma” meant “Biden”.
“It is not credible to me that he was oblivious,” Hill said. “He did not say Bidens however, he said Burisma.”“It is not credible to me that he was oblivious,” Hill said. “He did not say Bidens however, he said Burisma.”
The White House and Senate Republicans have met and agreed that a trial in the Senate would be better than an abrupt dismissal in case of impeachment, Politico scoops:The White House and Senate Republicans have met and agreed that a trial in the Senate would be better than an abrupt dismissal in case of impeachment, Politico scoops:
A “factual affirmative defense on the merits” – what would that look like? The Republicans have so far failed to summon any such thingA “factual affirmative defense on the merits” – what would that look like? The Republicans have so far failed to summon any such thing
Republican Will Hurd – who is retiring – starts out saying something that does not hew to the Republican line, that the impeachment hearings have revealed conduct that “undermined our national security and undercut Ukraine.”Republican Will Hurd – who is retiring – starts out saying something that does not hew to the Republican line, that the impeachment hearings have revealed conduct that “undermined our national security and undercut Ukraine.”
“I disagree with this sort of bungling foreign policy,” Hurd says.“I disagree with this sort of bungling foreign policy,” Hurd says.
But the he gets directly in Nunes’ draft: “There’s a lot we do not know. We have not heard from Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden or the whistleblower,” Hurd says.But the he gets directly in Nunes’ draft: “There’s a lot we do not know. We have not heard from Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden or the whistleblower,” Hurd says.
He says impeachment requires overwhelming evidence – suggesting he does not believe the last two weeks amount to that – and “I have not heard evidence proving that the president committed bribery or extortion.”He says impeachment requires overwhelming evidence – suggesting he does not believe the last two weeks amount to that – and “I have not heard evidence proving that the president committed bribery or extortion.”
Republican Elise Stefanik is up. She mentions that she plans to ask a question of the witnesses. But she spends a minute attacking the process of impeachment.Republican Elise Stefanik is up. She mentions that she plans to ask a question of the witnesses. But she spends a minute attacking the process of impeachment.
“Thank you Dr Hill for your comments on the personal attacks,” Stefanik says. Then she asks a question of Hill. Were you on the 25 July call? It’s been established that Hill was not.“Thank you Dr Hill for your comments on the personal attacks,” Stefanik says. Then she asks a question of Hill. Were you on the 25 July call? It’s been established that Hill was not.
Stefanik turns to Holmes. “Good to see you again” – as Holmes noted, he had helped host Stefanik and a delegation in Ukraine.Stefanik turns to Holmes. “Good to see you again” – as Holmes noted, he had helped host Stefanik and a delegation in Ukraine.
Then Stefanik goes back to Hill. There is a string of yes-no questions. Didn’t Ukraine receive the aid? Isn’t it true there was no investigation of the Bidens? Didn’t Trump and Zelenskiy meet at the UN?Then Stefanik goes back to Hill. There is a string of yes-no questions. Didn’t Ukraine receive the aid? Isn’t it true there was no investigation of the Bidens? Didn’t Trump and Zelenskiy meet at the UN?
Holmes pushes back a bit, pointing out that Trump and Zelenskiy never met in the Oval Office.Holmes pushes back a bit, pointing out that Trump and Zelenskiy never met in the Oval Office.
But didn’t they meet at the UN? Stefanik presses.But didn’t they meet at the UN? Stefanik presses.
Affirmative.Affirmative.
A third consecutive Republican, Chris Stewart, makes a speech without asking a question. They’ve seemingly decided that the best strategy from here is to minimize the witnesses’ speaking time.A third consecutive Republican, Chris Stewart, makes a speech without asking a question. They’ve seemingly decided that the best strategy from here is to minimize the witnesses’ speaking time.
Good anecdote from Hill, in reply to a question from Democrat Jackie Speier:Good anecdote from Hill, in reply to a question from Democrat Jackie Speier:
After Republican Wenstrup delivers a speech, following Turner’s speech, with no question and allowing no time for Hill to talk.
Hill notes that a couple Republicans, Mike Turner and John Ratcliffe, have left the hearing.
She says she has not incorrectly characterized the view of the committee on Russian election tampering. And she says “we have to find away... to stop [Russia] from doing what they did again in 2020.”
Hill pushes back against the Republican charge of hearsay. “We’re here to relate to you what we heard, what we saw, and what we did.”
She says a very momentous decision is at hand. In impeachment, but also in 2020, when she hopes voters can participate in an election “without any fear that this is being interfered in any quarter whatsoever.”
Hill is talking about ambassador Yovanovitch.
“Frankly she’s an easy target because she’s a woman,” Hill said. “And I’m very sorry to hear about what’s happened to Representative Stefanik.”
Turner, the Republican, had just mentioned attacks on Republican Elise Stefanik of New York, following her day-one stunt in the hearings that made it look like Schiff was inappropriately silencing her. Video clips of the moment led Fox News and circulated on conservative media as part of an attack on Schiff and the impeachment process.
Republican Mike Turner is up. He says he has evidence of the problem of hearsay. He yells at Hill for a few minutes and now he’s yelling at Holmes. He runs his time out with no question.
Republican John Ratcliffe asks Holmes about the 26 July Trump-Sondland phone call. Ratcliffe is after a – subtle? – point. The point is, if Trump found out on the phone that his supposed extortion plot with Ukraine was working, why then did he immediately bring up the rapper A$AP Rocky? Wouldn’t a successful bribe-r – this seems to be Ratcliffe’s arguement – wouldn’t someone who had just received news that his bribery and extortion plot in Ukraine had just come together have talked more about it or savored it?
Holmes said the Ukraine part of the conversation was very brief.
Ratcliffe asks Holmes what he heard Trump say about A$AP Rocky. Holmes did not hear that part. Ratcliffe wonders why Holmes just heard the Ukraine part and not the rest. Holmes says Sondland stopped moving the phone away from his ear.
Under questioning from Democrat Jim Himes, Hill is explaining why the points of “evidence” brandished by Nunes that Ukraine was tampering in the 2016 campaign against Trump are .. not evidence of that.
Hill said a lot of foreign leaders talked trash about Trump before the election, but that did not make Trump turn against those countries the way he reportedly loathes and resents Ukraine, she says. So why did he turn so decisively against Ukraine?
Now the Republicans. Nunes hands to Jim Jordan who asks Holmes why Taylor did not at first mention to investigators that Holmes told him about the 26th July lunch with Sondland.
Holmes says he did not tell Taylor right away because Taylor was on the front lines. Then Holmes went on vacation for a week, when he came back he referred to the call in a meeting with Taylor and Taylor nodded, Holmes said. Holmes thought Taylor had been briefed on the call.
“My main takeaway was, the president does not care about Ukraine... that was the takeaway” and what he talked about with people on the subject of the call, Holmes said.
Jordan mocks Taylor and Holmes for Holmes’ relatively late entry in the process.
Holmes said his account of the call with Trump might not have stuck out for Taylor because it was part of an overwhelming number of indicators amounting to common knowledge that the president was pressing for investigations of Biden and did not care about other stuff.
Holmes is barely allowed to testify, Jordan interrupts him repeatedly despite Schiff’s gavel.
“I believe that ambassador Taylor did already know... it was not news to him that the president was asking for a Biden investigation... it’s exactly my point. I briefed the call in detail... I refer to the call and everyone is nodding... of course that’s what’s going on... everyone by that point agreed. It was obvious what the president was pressing for.”
Jordan repeatedly interrupts Holmes.
Hill now describes the 10 July White House meeting in which Sondland described the deal with Mulvaney of a meeting for investigations.
“There was no yelling or shouting,” Hill says. “That’s some embellishment... Sondland was in an exchange with Vindman... ‘we have an agreement to have a meeting’.”
They went downstairs to the Ward room though Perry had left, Hill says.
“When I came in, Gordon Sondland was basically saying look, I have a deal with chief of staff Mulvaney that we have a meeting if the Ukrainians announce investigations of Burisma...
“I cut it off right there... it was clear then that Burisma was code for the Bidens...
“So I cut off this line and I said to Ambassador Sondland look... we have to properly prepare this... and we really shouldn’t be talking about this in front of our colleagues from Ukraine...
“We asked our colleagues to wait outside of the door in the corridor..;
“I pushed back on ambassador Sondland... look I know there’s differences about when we should have this meeting...
“Ambassador Sondland then said OK, fair enough. Ambassador Volker didn’t say anything at this particular juncture.”
Hill then spoke with Bolton who told her to talk to Eisenberg.
Schiff is back.
He asks Hill about the dual loyalty charge leveled on Tuesday against Vindman.
“I think it’s very unfortunate. This is a country of immigrants... with the exception of very few...
Hill is asked about Tim Morrison, her successor, saying that Hill had questioned Lt Col Alexander Vindman’s judgment.
In her opinion, Vindman did not have the political antennae to deal effectively with the informal policy channel emerging on Ukraine, she said.
“That does not mean in any way that I was questioning his overall judgment or his expertise. He is excellent... this is a very different issue.
“Col Vindman was justifiably alarmed when he realized that there was this highly political aspect of the meeting that we were engaged in.”
Hill says that Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in foreign policy, and the two had diverged.”
“I did say to him, Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up and here we are.”
Hill continues:
“Ambassador Sondland is not wrong that he had been given a different remit than we had been... I wasn’t really being fair to ambassador Sondland, because he was carrying out” what he had been directed to.
Nunes flies to Trump’s defense. He says Trump was concerned about 2016 and Burisma, throws in the Steele dossier and “if that was the concern of the president... and it’s the concern of ambassador Sondland to ensure that meetings occurred...I’m a little, I mean”– Nunes sputters out.
“My point Mr Nunes,” Hill says, “is that we at the NSC were not told either by the president directly or by Mr Bolton ...” that we were to be focused on these matters.
“I was not given a directive. In fact I was given a directive on July 10 very clearly by Ambassador Bolton to stay out of domestic politics.”