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| Impeachment hearings: Fiona Hill rejects Republicans' ‘fictional narrative’ Ukraine meddled in US election – live | Impeachment hearings: Fiona Hill rejects Republicans' ‘fictional narrative’ Ukraine meddled in US election – live |
| (32 minutes later) | |
| Military aid was withheld by Trump to express dissatisfaction or increase pressure, state department aide Holmes testifies | Military aid was withheld by Trump to express dissatisfaction or increase pressure, state department aide Holmes testifies |
| Some reactions and analysis to this morning’s action in the impeachment hearing room: | |
| Ok they’re taking a break. | |
| Hill is now describing a key scene, 10 July meetings at the White House in which Sondland told Ukrainians he had a deal with acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney for a White House meeting for Zelenskiy if the Ukrainians announced investigations of Burisma/Bidens. | |
| Yesterday Sondland said he did mention investigations in these meetings but he couldn’t recall naming Mulvaney or specifically saying “Burisma” or “Biden.” | |
| In contrast, Hill has no doubt about what she heard. | |
| “I listened very carefully to ambassador Sondland’s testimony,” she said. | |
| “The meeting had initially been scheduled for about 45 minutes to an hour. It was definitely in the wrap-up stage at this point... Danylyuk was talking...we’d also wanted to [talk] energy sector reform... and then we knew that the Ukrainians would have on their agenda inevitably a question about a meeting... | |
| “Amb Bolton was trying to parry this back.. it’s not Amb Bolton’s role to start pulling out the schedule...and he does not as a matter of course like to discuss the details... then Amb Sondland leaned in, basically to say ‘Well, we have an agreement that there will be a meeting if specific investigations are put under way.” | |
| Then Hill saw Bolton stiffen, look at his wristwatch, “and basically said ‘Well, it’s really great to see you, I’m afraid I’ve got another meeting’.” | |
| Sondland had not specifically said Burisma or Mulvaney yet, Hill said – “It was unclear who arranged the agreement” – but then the group went to a downstairs room for a debrief. | |
| “Later [Sondland] said that he had an agreement with chief of staff Mulvaney that in return for investigations that this meeting would be scheduled.” | |
| Investigations of what nature?, Goldman asks. | |
| “He said investigations in Burisma.” | |
| Then Bolton told Hill to go to NSC lawyer John Eisenberg, she says. | |
| “Specific instruction was I had to go to the lawyers... [he said] ‘You tell Eisenberg that I am not part of whatever drug deal that Mulvaney and Sondland were cooking up’.” | |
| Did you know what he meant by ‘drug deal’? | |
| “I took it to mean investigations for a meeting.” | |
| Did you go speak to the lawyers? | |
| “I certainly did.” | |
| Did you relay this? | |
| “I relayed it precisely.” | |
| Powerful moment. | |
| Goldman asks Holmes whether he understood in the spring that “Burisma” meant “Biden.” Both Volker and Sondland have testified under oath that they did not draw the connection at the time. | |
| Holmes answers “yes,” he understood the connection. | |
| Do you think that anyone involved in Ukraine matters in the spring and the summer would understand that as well? | |
| “Yes.” | |
| Goldman has Hill testify to the role of Republican aide Kash Patel who was inserted in Ukraine policy at the time (and who has sued Politico using Devin Nunes’ lawyer). | |
| “Kash Patel provided some information directly to the president without your knowledge?” Goldman asks. | |
| Hill says that’s the case. | |
| Was Zelenskiy already under pressure? | |
| Yes, says Holmes. | |
| To investigate Biden, Burisma and the 2016 elections? | |
| “Correct.” | |
| Holmes says Giuliani “was someone to contend with” in Ukraine. | |
| Goldman focuses on the May 20 Zelenskiy inauguration. The US delegation included all three amigos plus the temporary chargé and Vindman. | |
| Perry gave a list to Zelenskiy at the time, Holmes says. “He handed over a piece of paper. I did not see what was on the paper but secretary Perry described what was on the paper. A list of trusted individuals.” | |
| Holmes believes the list was names from the American energy sector. | |
| Goldman is asking Hill about what Bolton thought of Giuliani’s activities in Ukraine. | |
| Hill said Giuliani was on TV a lot talking Ukraine, “and I had already brought to Amb Bolton’s attention the smear campaign against Amb Yovanovitch” which Hill calls shameful. | |
| “Amb Bolton had looked pained, indicated with body language that there was nothing he could do about it” then said “Mr Giuliani is a hand grenade that is going to blow everyone up.” | |
| What did that mean? | |
| “That Mr Giuliani was pushing views,” Hill replies, “that would probably come back to haunt us, and that’s where we are today.” | |
| Was president Trump adopting Vladimir Putin’s line on Ukraine over the official US assessment?, Goldman asks Hill. | |
| She replies: | |
| “I think we have to be very careful about the way that we phrase that. This is a view that president Putin... and many actors have promoted.. got some traction perhaps in parallel and separately here in the United States... those two strands fused together.” | |
| Goldman then asks her about Trump’s meetings with Putin at the time. Hill affirms those happened. | |
| Goldman reads from the 25 July call summary, quoting Trump about Crowdstrike. | Goldman reads from the 25 July call summary, quoting Trump about Crowdstrike. |
| Is this the conspiracy theory you’re talking about, Goldman asks Hill? | Is this the conspiracy theory you’re talking about, Goldman asks Hill? |
| “Yes.” | “Yes.” |
| Does that mean Trump ignored senior officials who told him that Crowdstrike was a conspiracy theory and listened to Giuliani instead?, Goldman asks Hill. | Does that mean Trump ignored senior officials who told him that Crowdstrike was a conspiracy theory and listened to Giuliani instead?, Goldman asks Hill. |
| “That appears to be the case, yes,” she says. | “That appears to be the case, yes,” she says. |
| Goldman notes that Trump praises Lutsenko on the 25 July call. He asks Holmes about Lutsenko. | Goldman notes that Trump praises Lutsenko on the 25 July call. He asks Holmes about Lutsenko. |
| Holmes: | Holmes: |
| Hill says she found the summary of the 25 July call “surprising.” In her deposition she said she was saddened by the call. It did not advance the US policy project. | Hill says she found the summary of the 25 July call “surprising.” In her deposition she said she was saddened by the call. It did not advance the US policy project. |
| Hill notes she left the White House before the call, but “In the months leading up” to it, “it became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016.” | Hill notes she left the White House before the call, but “In the months leading up” to it, “it became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016.” |