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Impeachment hearings: key witness to reject claim Ukraine meddled in US election – live Impeachment hearings: Fiona Hill rejects Republicans' ‘fictional narrative’ Ukraine meddled in US election – live
(32 minutes later)
Military aid was withheld by Trump to express dissatisfaction or increase pressure, state department aide Holmes testifiesMilitary aid was withheld by Trump to express dissatisfaction or increase pressure, state department aide Holmes testifies
Hill is telling the story of her coal-miner father and grandfather. Goldman reads from the 25 July call summary, quoting Trump about Crowdstrike.
She said, “I take great pride in the fact that I am a nonpartisan foreign policy expert, who has served under three different Republican and Democratic presidents.” Is this the conspiracy theory you’re talking about, Goldman asks Hill?
Hill gets into her opening statement. This line sounds an awful lot like a dig at John Bolton, her former boss who has resisted testifying: “Yes.”
Holmes wraps. Hill is up. Does that mean Trump ignored senior officials who told him that Crowdstrike was a conspiracy theory and listened to Giuliani instead?, Goldman asks Hill.
Pace the president, it turns out that David Holmes is not the only one to have overheard a Trump phone call. From a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist: “That appears to be the case, yes,” she says.
Holmes says that Taylor and Yovanovitch’s testimony in the impeachment hearings reflects his own understanding. Goldman notes that Trump praises Lutsenko on the 25 July call. He asks Holmes about Lutsenko.
But he has recently read reports that certain senior officials were freelancing in Ukraine, not at the president’s direction, he said, and that evidence in the impeachment hearing was a matter of hearsay. Holmes:
Since he knew both to be untrue, Holmes testifies, he felt impelled to tell Taylor that he had firsthand information and to testify. Hill says she found the summary of the 25 July call “surprising.” In her deposition she said she was saddened by the call. It did not advance the US policy project.
By August, Holmes says, “My clear impression was that the hold was intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction...[that Ukrainians had not announced investigations] or as an attempt to increase the pressure on them to do so.” Hill notes she left the White House before the call, but “In the months leading up” to it, “it became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016.”
Holmes then describes how embassy staff watched as Zelenskiy prepared to go on CNN in September to announce the investigations. They thought it was going to happen, Holmes said. This is the restaurant, apparently, Sho.Kiev.
Holmes says Sondland told him Trump only cared about “big stuff” in Ukraine “like the Biden investigation that Mr Giuliani was pushing”: Holmes asked Sondland about Trump’s views on Ukraine, Holmes testifies:
Holmes continues telling the story of the lunch and Sondland’s conversation with Trump about springing A$AP Rocky from jail in Sweden. “He said he really doesn’t care about Ukraine... he says he cares about big stuff. I asked him what kind of big stuff...war with Russia? He said no, big stuff like the Biden investigation that Mr Giuliani’s pushing.”
Holmes continues: Goldman asks why Holmes remembers the conversation so well.
Holmes is now describing his day in Ukraine with Sondland, 26 July. Holmes: “This was a very distinctive experience... someone at a lunch.. making a call on his cell phone to the president of the United States... they were directly addressing something that I had been working on for weeks and months.. here he is actually having that contact. Hearing the president’s voice and hearing them talk about this Biden investigation issue that I’d been hearing about,”
This is verbatim from his closed-door deposition: Holmes says when the president came on it was “quite loud” and “distinctive.”
Holmes says “contrary to standard procedure” he got no readout of the 25 July Trump-Zelenskiy call. When Trump came on, Sondland winced and held the phone away from his ear, Holmes says.
When he read the call summary in September, Holmes says, “I was deeply disappointed to see that the president raised none” of the policy priorities “and instead raised the Biden-Burisma investigation and referred to the theory about Crowdstrike.” What did Holmes hear Trump say?
Holmes said there was growing concern in Kiev that a Trump-Zelenskiy might not go well, after Trump met with Vladimir Putin in July. “He clarified whether he was in Ukraine... he said, ‘is he gonna do the investigation.”
Holmes is now on to military aid, which he describes as “crucial” in the Ukrainian defensive war against Russia. You heard that?
Holmes said he traveled to US-run military training facilities in Ukraine with congress members including Republican Elise Stefanik who sits on the committee. “Yes sir.”
He was “shocked” by the announcement in 18 July of the hold on assistance, Holmes says. The order had come from the president, an OMB official said, and it was conveyed by Mulvaney. What was Sondland’s response?
Holmes is describing how the Ukrainians tried to arrange a White House meeting but had to settle, at first, for attending a June party in Brussels thrown by Gordon Sondland and featuring Jared Kushner and Jay Leno. “He said oh yeah, he’s gonna do it, he’ll do anything you ask.”
“The Ukrainian policy community was unanimous in recognizing the importance of securing a meeting,” Holmes said. “Ambassador Volker told us that the next five years could hang on what could be accomplished in the next three months.” Then they went to lunch. “The restaurant has glass doors that open onto a terrace,” Holmes says. They sat on the terrace. Two tables for two pushed together. “We were close enough that we could share an appetizer between us.”
Holmes said the White House would not budge on the presidential meeting. The message was that Zelenskiy needed to make clear to Trump that he would not stand in the way of investigations. Goldman asked: “This was an unsecure cell phone? In the middle of a restaurant in Kiev?”
Holmes: “Yes.”
Goldman is asking Holme about the Kiev restaurant patio scene. Before lunch, there was a meeting with Zelenskiy. Holmes took notes. Zelenskiy said the day before, 25 July, on his call with Trump, “three times president Zelenskiy said president Trump had brought up sensitive issues.”
What were those? Holmes did not at first understand clearly but with release of call records it was clear:
“The Burisma-Biden investigation,” Holmes says.
Goldman, the lawyer, is up. He asks the witnesses about Sondland’s authority.
“He told me it was the president” who put him in charge, Hill says.
Holmes agrees.
Schiff points out that Holmes said Ukrainians still “believed they had to” make a public statement even after the hold on aid was lifted.
“Whether the hold continued or not, the Ukrainians understood that that’s something the president wanted,” Holmes says.
The same pressures on Ukraine persist today, Holmes says. “This doesn’t end with the lifting of the security assistance hold.”
Holmes replies that US policy is to promote anti-corruption broadly but not to focus on specific cases.
“It’s hard to explain why we would do that,” Holmes says.
Schiff turns to Holmes. He rereads part of Holmes statement in which Holmes described the specific demand on Zelenskiy to go on cable to announce investigations.
It’s hypocrisy, Schiff said. “What are we doing? We’re asking them to investigate the president’s political rival.... What does that do to our anti-corruption efforts?
Hill is describing the Russian strategy and tactics: