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Presidential debate: Clinton calls Trump 'Putin's puppet' – live updates
Presidential debate: Trump refuses to say if he will accept election result – live
(35 minutes later)
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Trump on election result: 'I will look at it at the time'
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Question for Trump: Will you accept the result of the election?
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Trump: “I will look at it at the time.”
#ff
Wow.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump do not shake hands after the debate.
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It's the longest possible time until we have to sit through another presidential debate.Savor this moment, America. pic.twitter.com/EM9tDAxGzh
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The debates will end with not a single question asked about climate change.
Fact check: TPP, Isis
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Here are the top three tweeted moments of the debate according to Twitter:
Top 3 tweeted moments of the debate via Twitter pic.twitter.com/ppTOPyx3BX
And check out the top most-retweeted tweet of the night:
Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?
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03:40
Fact check: healthcare, vets and 'inner cities'
Alan Yuhas
Alan Yuhas
Trump: Clinton flip-flopped on the Trans Pacific Partnership
Trump: “Next week [the healthcare premiums] are going to go up 100%”
Trump is right: Clinton has not been consistent on the Trans Pacific Partnership, and her language from 2010 through 2014 suggests she was broadly in support of Barack Obama’s trade deal, before eventually opposing it as a presidential candidate. As secretary of state in 2012, she said: “This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field. And when negotiated, this agreement will cover 40 percent of the world’s total trade and build in strong protections for workers and the environment.”
Trump and Clinton both accept the reality that healthcare premiums have increased since the Affordable Care Act was enacted, but Trump appears to be exaggerating wildly. On average, premiums have risen by about 5.8% a year since Barack Obama took office, compared with 13.2% in the nine years before Obama, Politifact found earlier this year. Trump, however, is cherry-picking data from various states and providers where rates have had higher jumps. The most common healthcare plans will increase 9% on average, according to an analysis by the Kaiser Family Foundation.
She continued to praise it while she worked for the Obama administration, variously calling it “high quality”, “cutting edge”, “groundbreaking” and “high standard”.
Trump: “We take care of illegal immigrants … better than we take care of our vets”
Trump: “She gave us Isis … she created a vacuum”
This claim flies in the face of evidence and logic. Like all US citizens, veterans enjoy the basic rights and benefits granted by US law (voting rights, social security, Medicaid, etc), while undocumented migrants (noncitizens) do not. Trump has in the past tried to justify this claim by saying the US spends more on undocumented people than on veterans, but has drawn a $113bn price tag from an explicitly anti-immigration foundation. He also inflated that number.
The claim that Hillary Clinton “gave” the world Isis condenses and distorts a conservative view that, closer to its original form, says that that by withdrawing American forces from Iraq Barack Obama created a power vacuum in which Isis could rise.
The campaign has said the US spends $2.8bn on housing migrants in prisons, combining an estimate on prison costs and the 2016 budget for the care and processing of children who came to the US without adults. The Veterans Affairs administration has a 2016 budget of $69.7bn. Veterans and undocumented migrants alike have access to K-12 education, though few veterans would likely seek it, and veterans have access to the Affordable Care Act, military benefits and health benefits, while migrants do not.
This argument ignores that Isis’s first segments formed out of Iraq’s civil war, while George W Bush was president; that the group gained strength in Syria’s civil war, where the US did not intervene until 2014; that Obama withdrew American forces in 2011 under the timeline agreed on by Bush and Baghdad; and that both Bush and Obama failed to come to an agreement with Baghdad over troops – in large part over a disagreement about whether American troops could be prosecuted by Iraq.
Trump: “Our inner cities are a disaster. You get shot walking to the store, you have no education, no jobs”
Trump supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and “surgical” intervention to remove Libyan dictator Muammar Ghaddafi in 2011, though he now claims otherwise. He also supported withdrawal from Iraq in 2007 and 2008.
Trump’s repeated claim that “African Americans, Hispanics, are living in hell” defies most of American history, from antebellum slavery through the Jim Crow decades, great depression and segregation. Even if Trump is only referring the past half century, he is still wrong by most metrics.
Trump: those stories have been largely debunked
Data on employment, education and health show empirical evidence for the persistent reality of discrimination against black Americans, but also show major gains in the last few decades. In 2015, black people earned just 75% as much as whites in median hourly earnings, whether full- or part-time, according to a Pew Research analysis. The black unemployment rate in August 2016 was 8.1%, compared with 4.4% for white people, but still lower than for most of the last 40 years. Black life expectancy has increased from the mid-30s around 1900 to the mid-70s in 2016, according to the CDC. Education rates have similarly increased in the last 40 years, according to the census.
The sexual allegations against Trump have not been “debunked”, though they have not been proven, either. For context, Jill Harth sued Trump in 1997 for “attempted rape” and earlier this year told the Guardian he “me up against the wall” of a child’s bedroom “and had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress”. Jessica Leeds and Rachel Cooks recounted to the New York Times that Trump had groped the former “like an octopus” and kissed the latter without consent. Reporter Natasha Stoynoff has said Trump cornered her in a room in 2005 and “within seconds, he was pushing me against the wall, and forcing his tongue down my throat”. Mindy McGillivray told the Palm Beach Post a similar story, saying that Trump groped her 13 years ago, also at his Mar-a-Lago property in Florida. Summer Zervos, a former Apprentice contestant, has alleged that he groped and kissed her without consent in 2007. Temple Taggart accused Trump of advances at rehearsal for the 1997 Miss USA pageant, photographer Kirsten Anderson said Trump groped her at a nightclub in the 1990s, and Cathy Heller said he grabbed and kissed her at a Mar-A-Lago brunch in 1997.
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The Trump campaign has denied the allegations. It has produced a self-professed witness, who has a history of making unproven claims, from the flight with Leeds, and a letter from the cousin of Zervos expressing doubt about her claim but not calling her a liar. “I can only imagine that Summer’s actions today are nothing more than an attempt to regain the spotlight at Mr Trump’s expense,” his letter said.
03:38
Trump: “I did not say that [women were not unattractive enough for him to advance on]”
Who won? What was the headline? Trump saying he would keep the country in suspense as to whether he will accept the election result? What was that?
Trump clearly suggested that he did not find at least one of his accusers attractive, saying “She would not be my first choice, believe me.”
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Trump: “They hired people [to incite violence at rallies], they gave them $1,500 … she caused the violence, it’s on tape!”
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Trump appears to be alluding to an edited video that suggests a few Democratic staffers had hired people to incite violence. One of those staffers has resigned, and said that “none of the schemes described in the conversations ever took place”. So far there is no proof that anyone was actually hired to cause violence.
Watch our post-debate panel
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Our post-debate panel is starting now – it’s live! Join WNYC and the Guardian US live from Tumblr headquarters as we discuss the final presidential debate.
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Moderator: Nicholas Thompson, editor of NewYorker.com
Trump says the Trump Foundation money goes to charity. He denies foundation funds were used to pay a penalty to Palm Beach County for a zoning-violating-flagpole.
Kai Wright, host of WNYC & The Nation’s United States of Anxiety Podcast
Clinton: “He hasn’t released his tax returns... what we have learned... he has not paid a penny in federal income tax.
Jessica Valenti, Columnist at The Guardian
“We have more undocumented immigrants in America paying more in federal taxes than one of our [nominees].”
Tanzina Vega, National Reporter at CNN
Trump is trapped in this conversation: “You should have changed the law when you were a United States senator.”
Spencer Ackerman, Editor at The Guardian
Trump says earlier today “I was sitting in my apartment in the very beautiful hotel”.
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Clinton with a zinger! “That the Chinese built,” she interjects. Zing zing zing feel the heat ...
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Closing statements
Wallace: Let’s end this nicely. Closing statements. One minute, go.
Clinton: I’m reaching out to all Americans because we need everybody. Let me speak directly to the camera. We need your talents. I’ve seen the presidency up close. Responsibility and opportunity. I have made the cause of children and families my life’s work. That will be my mission. Families against corporate interests. Give me a chance.
Trump: She’s raising the money from the people she wants to control. Doesn’t work that way. We’re going to make America great again. We have a depleted military. Take care of our veterans. Policemen and women disrespected. Inner cities.. shot walking to the store. All she’s done is talk to the African Americans and the Latinos. We are going to make America strong again... it has to start now. “We cannot take four more years of Barack Obama and that’s what you get when you get her.”
For some reason Clinton smiles broadly at that last line.
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Question for Trump: Would you raise taxes to save Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security?
Trump: We’ll cut taxes, grow economy, repeal and replace Obamacare. Presto. But she wants to make Obamacare even worse.
Clinton: We need to add to the social security trust fund by raising taxes on the wealthy. We want to...
Trump interrupts her: “Such a nasty woman.”
Clinton: “I will not cut benefits; I want to enhance benefits... I’ll say something about the ACA – [Obamacare] extended the solvency of the social security trust fund...”
warm take: Trump may have put a floor under his collapsing campaign with a calmer performance but feels too late and exposes policy instead.
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Question for Clinton: At your senate confirmation you promised no conflict of interest with Clinton foundation. But donors had special access, your emails show. Did you keep your pledge?
Fact check: jobs and drugs
Clinton: “Everything I did as secretary of state was in furtherance of our country’s interest and our values. ... but I am happy, in fact I am thrilled to talk about the Clinton foundation, because it is a world-renowned charity.”
Alan Yuhas
Clinton begins talking about HIV/Aids treatment. Wonder if she’ll manage to cut herself off in time to mention the Trump foundation?
Trump: “Our country is stagnant. We’ve lost our jobs”
Wallace cuts her off, Trump is yelling “it’s a criminal enterprise, Saudi Arabia giving $25m... these are people that push gays off buildings... why don’t you give back the money that you’ve taken from certain countries.”
About 10.7 million people have gained jobs since Barack Obama took office in 2009 (not 15 million as the Clinton campaign sometimes claims). Growth is not stagnant, though it is not significant, and it requires context: the 2008 financial crisis that nearly collapsed the economy. According to a 2015 nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, the stimulus may have increased GDP buy up to 0.2 percentage points. US growth in the second quarter of 2016 was 1.4%.
Clinton is smiling, small-ly, to herself.
Trump: “Their [the people of New Hampshire’s] single biggest problem is heroin that pours across our southern borders, just pouring and destroying their youth”
Trump says that Haiti hates the Clintons.
Trump is correct that heroin deaths have increased dramatically since 2007, in part because of the abuse of painkillers and the growth of a number of powerful heroin-related drugs, such as fentanyl. According to the DEA, 10,574 Americans died from heroin-related overdoses in 2014, more than three times the number in 2010.
Clinton: “The Clinton foundation spent 90% of all the money that is donated on behalf of programs around the world.. I’d be happy to compare to the Trump foundation that took money from other people and bought a six-foot portrait of Donald.
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“I mean, who does that?”
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Trump admits disagreeing with Reagan on trade policy
Trump on the debt: I’m going to create a bunch of jobs and hit 6% growth with my “tremendous economic machine.” Protectionism. Trade barriers. “I’m going to create the kind of country that we were from the standpoint of industry.” Trade deals bad. He’s finishing strong. “We have the greatest business people in the world... we use political hacks.” “We have to use our great people.”
Will there be closing statements? This all seems to be ending so... irresolutely.
Clinton: When I hear Donald talk like that, “I wonder when he thought America was great.” He says before me and Obama. But “He has been criticizing our country for decades. In 1987 he took out a $100,000 ad in the New York Times, when Ronald Reagan was president, and said exactly what he said just now.”
Clinton: “If you look at the debt, I pay for everything I’m proposing... we’ll have what economists call middle-out growth... I want to invest in you, I want to invest in your family... he started off as a millionaire...
Trump can’t help himself: “We’ve heard this before.”
Trump: “I did disagree very strongly with Ronald Reagan.” (ooooh.) We should have had much tougher trade policy, he says.
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Now Wallace wants to talk about the national debt. Final segment.
Stay tuned for our post-debate panel! We’ll post a live feed as soon as we’re done talking dollars and cents.
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03:25
Mona Chalabi
Mona Chalabi
Sexual assault happens every day. What makes the allegations against Trump rare is not just who Trump is, it’s that the allegations were ever even heard. Only two out of three sexual assaults are reported to the police according to Bureau of Justice Statistics.
Hillary Clinton urges viewers of the debate to Google “Donald Trump Iraq”. Apparently, a lot of people don’t need the nudge - US searches already spiked at the end of last month. They’re less interested in the former secretary of state’s relationship with the country.
Of the sexual violence crimes that were not reported to police from 2005-2010, victims provided reasons for not reporting the incident. They included:
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03:00
Trump: “Nobody has more respect for women than I do.” (There is some audience laughter at this. “And frankly those stories have been debunked. And I want to talk about something slightly different.”
Guess what he wants to talk about? Clinton’s emails. You know the highlights. Some 33,000 deleted emails. Four-star generals (Petraeus). She’s lied hundreds of times. And she gets away with it?
“That’s what you should really be talking about, not fiction,” says Trump.
Clinton: “Every time Donald is pushed, he immediately goes to denying responsibility, and it’s not just women. He never apologizes ... he also went after a disabled reporter...”
Trump: WRONG.
Clinton: He went after Mr and Mrs Khan. He went after John McCain ... [and] a federal judge born in Indiana ... because his parents are Mexican.
So it’s not one thing. This is a pattern. A pattern of divisiveness... that is not who America is, and I hope that as we move to the last weeks of this campaign, more and more people understand what’s at stake.
Trump: “She talks about violence at my rallies, she caused the violence... I’d love to talk about other things.”
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@lucia_graves @guardian Trump lied and lied again. He says he doesn't know any of the women. Well, he definitely knew me. I told the truth
Now we’re on to a no-fly zone for Syria. Only a few minutes left here, fewer than 10. Clinton makes the important point that the millions of displaced inside and outside Syria need help.
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“I am not going to let anyone into this country who is not vetted... but I am not going to slam the door on women and children... that picture of that little 4-year-old boy with blood coming down his face... that is haunting.”
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Clinton says that the Pulse Nightclub shooter “was born in Queens, the same place Donald was born. Let’s be clear about the threat.”
Clinton: “At the last debate, we heard Donald talking about what he did to women. And we had a number of women coming forward saying that’s what he did to them.”
Trump: “It’s so ridiculous. .. Wait one second... they had a ceasefire three weeks ago. And Russia took over vast swatches [sic] of land...” etc.
Clinton says Trump said that he could not have possibly done that because they weren’t attractive enough.
Trump: “I did not say that. I did not say that.”
Clinton keeps up. She’s unloading on him, quoting him to himself. “Donald thinks belittling women makes him bigger... I don’t think there’s a woman out there who doesn’t know what that feels like.”
Clinton says that’s who Donald is and the country has to stand up and declare its own identity. “America is great because America is good, and it really is up to all of us to make that true.”
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02:55
Lucia Graves
Here’s another way Donald Trump isn’t fit to be president.
In attempting to re-up a favorite talking point of his about Clinton’s general dishonesty, Trump said Clinton is “a liar on so many different ways”.
The trouble here is not just that is a substance-free attack - Trump has been shown to lie roughly every five minutes while Clinton is actually unusually truthful compared to other presidential candidates, as Politifact has previously observed.
Jill Abramson has noted that in all the investigations into Clinton’s business dealings, fundraising, foundation and marriage that she launched in her tenure as the top editor of the New York Times, she never found any smoking guns.
In fact, she came away with a rather different revelation: “Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest and trustworthy,” she wrote back in March.
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02:54
Next topic: fitness to be president.
Wallace asks Trump about the nine women who have accused him in recent weeks of groping and or kissing them. Why would they do that?
Trump: “Those stories have been largely debunked... I don’t know those people. I have a feeling it was her campaign that did it.”
Then Trump says Clinton and Obama hired people to cause violence at his rallies.
“The stories were all totally false, and I didn’t even apologize to my wife, who is sitting right here, because I didn’t even do anything.”
Then he repeats his claim that his accusers just want fame. And now he’s back to his violent Chicago rally, “Started by her.” He accuses Clinton of infiltrating his rally.
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02:53
Fact check: debt and 'missing' money
Alan Yuhas
Trump: Obama has doubled the debt
Trump has the raw numbers just about right. When Obama took office on 20 January 2009, the federal debt was $10.63tn. As of 28 September 2016, it was $19.5tn. Trump omits, however, two key points: Congress controls the government’s wallet (ie Obama cannot spend or tax without approval from lawmakers), and Obama took office during the financial crisis, when Republicans, Democrats and most economists agreed that the US needed to spend in order to counteract the collapsing economy. Pence has the right numbers but imputes too much responsibility on the president.
Clinton: Trump’s plan largely helps the wealthy and add $20tn in debt
Clinton is correct that although Trump’s tax plan would cut taxes for everyone, it would disproportionately help the wealthiest Americans, saving them millions of dollars and adding $5.3tn to the national debt, according to an analysis by the Tax Foundation, a conservative thinktank. She seems to be citing another analysis, by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, about the debt, and possibly overstates its estimated consequences.
That center warned that without severe spending cuts, the plan would balloon national debt “by nearly 80% of gross domestic product by 2036, offsetting some or all of the incentive effects of the tax cuts”. According to that group, half of Trump’s tax cuts would go to the top 1% of earners, and most families below the top 20% of earners would have income gains of less than 1%.
Trump: “When you ran the State Department, $6bn was missing! Maybe it was stolen … nobody knows”
This is not correct. Trump is alluding to a March 2014 alert, about contractor spending in the Middle East and Africa, by the State Department’s inspector general, who was so perturbed by careless language around the $6bn figure that he wrote the Washington Post a letter that April. His alert did not conclude that the money was “missing” he told the Post, but rather that officials had failed “to adequately maintain contract files” that created “significant financial risk”. Files were missing or incomplete regarding several dozen contracts, not the money itself, and the State Department agreed to his recommendations.
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Clinton’s parallel histories of the last 30 years is effective. She draws a contrast between killing bin Laden and Trump running Celebrity Apprentice.
Trump says he’s proud of her experience. Then he says “Take a look at Syria.”
“She gave us Isis,” Trump says. He says it twice. “She gave us Isis as sure as you are sitting there.”
Wallace jumps in. It’s not time to talk foreign policy yet, he says.
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02:51
Clinton gets to reply on trade. She says the final TPP agreement did not meet her test. We’ve heard that explanation many times. “There’s only one of us onstage that’s shipped jobs to Mexico, and that’s Donald, who has shipped jobs to 12 countries... Donald has bought Chinese steel and aluminum, in fact the Trump hotel right here in Las Vegas is made with Chinese steel.”
He is stone faced. Speak, Trump:
“I asked a simple question. She’s been doing this for 30 years. Why the hell didn’t you do this over the last 15, 20 years?”
Clinton tries to get in, but Trump says “my turn.”
Trump: “The one thing you have over me is experience. But it’s bad experience.”
Chinese steel? Trump says. “I’d make it impossible for me to do that. I wouldn’t mind.”
Trump: “If you become president this country is going to be a mess, believe me.”
Clinton says the issue of her 30 years of experience is important. Now she starts to describe their parallel experiences over the last 30 years.
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02:50
Fact check: endorsements, borders and debt
Alan Yuhas
Trump: “The border patrol agents, 16,500 plus, ICE, endorsed me. First time they’ve ever endorsed a candidate”
Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a government agency. It does not endorse political candidates. A union representing about 7,600 ICE officials endorsed Trump in September. A group representing 16,500 of 21,000 border patrol agents similarly endorsed Trump; this does not represent all the agents.
Trump: Clinton called for “open borders”
Clinton is correct that Trump took the quote out of context: she was talking primarily about trade to Banco Itau, a Brazilian bank that eventually became Unibanco. Here’s what she said, according to a hacked email released by Wikileaks:
My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere.
Clinton has flip-flopped on free trade since 2013, most notably supporting and then rejecting the Trans Pacific Partnership.
Trump: I’m a big fan of Nato but they have to pay up
Trump is not necessarily a big fan of Nato, which he has called “obsolete”, and he’s wrong that allies do not pay for US military bases, though they do not pay perhaps as much as some Nato commanders want.
The US has urged its Nato allies to pay more for years, especially as eastern and central European allies have loudly warned about aggressive Russian action. The US currently pays about 22% of overall Nato spending, compared to Germany’s 15%, France’s 11%, the UK’s 10%, etc, and most Nato members fail to pay the 2% of GDP into defense as the alliance’s guidelines dictate. But the US does receive payments for military bases abroad from countries like Japan and South Korea, and takes profits from arms deals (sometimes to controversial clients, such as Saudi Arabia).
The US also benefits strategically through foreign military bases, which have acted as foundations for American influence abroad.
Clinton: I will not add a penny to the debt
Estimates suggest Clinton is not wholly correct. Her proposed tax plan would add $191bn to the debt over the long term, according to the Committee for a Responsible Budget, a conservative thinktank. The Tax Policy Center, however, estimates that she would add $1.1tn in revenue in a decade, though much of that would be offset by increased spending. The Tax Foundation estimated that Trump’s plan would add $5.3tn to the debt.
Trump: I never said Japan should have nuclear weapons
Trump has suggested Japan and South Korea should develop their own nuclear weapons. He told the New York Times in March: “Well I think maybe it’s not so bad to have Japan — if Japan had that nuclear threat, I’m not sure that would be a bad thing for us.”
Trump says you won't find a quote from me suggesting Japan gets nuclear weapons..... err.... #debate pic.twitter.com/TMtvOeJiwq
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Wallace says that conservative economists have scored his plan and found it unrealistic.
“I just left some high representatives of India, they’re growing at 8%... we are growing at the 1% level and I think it’s going down. ... last week they came out with anemic jobs report. And I said, is that the last jobs report before the election, because if it is, I should win easily.”
Trump says the economy is terrible. He’s made new friends and cried over shuttered factories. “It is just horrible what’s happening to these people.”
He hits Clinton over the Bill Clinton -era Nafta deal, which is currently nationally unpopular.
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02:45
Wallace tells Clinton her jobs plan was like the Obama stimulus plan which did not produce strong growth.
“Right,” Trump interjects, smiling. He can’t stay off the mic. We’re halfway through.
Clinton is taking us through a thumbnail history of the bailout and stimulus years. She says Obama does not get credit. She says it’s time to invest “from the middle out and the ground up, not the top down!” She invests that last phrase with some Sandersesque passion. OK not quite Sandersesque but some.
